Functional difference between T1 and T4 motors of same HP range and budget?

[eskamobob1]

Hey guys,

So I honestly wasnt super sure where to put this so I just took a guess. I know what the major mechanical diferences between a T1 and T4 engine are, but my question is what exactly is the difference between them in how the car runs? For example, say we took a T1 and a T4 both around 100 HP, is one going to be significantly more torquey than the other? Are the power bands going to be super different? Is one easier than the other to increase redline on? Is one really going to last longer than the other assuming similar budgets (you know, with like 3k being required just for exhaust and cooling on the T4)? Is one going to do better on long hauls than the other? What exactly are the functional differences I am looking at going to be?

I am asking this question as I am in the starting phase of planning a motor and tranny build and havent ever seen this mentioned anywhere when talking T1 vs T4 other than an article that vaguely mentions it and is like 25 years old (and I assume a lot has changed)

[sideshow]

Suck Squeeze Bang Blow...the type-4 weighs more

[H2OSB]

I'm not sure I can specifically answer your questions, but these questions have plagued me as well.

There are things I simply don't like about T1 engine.
Everything I don't like is corrected with the T4. That said, building a T4 is excessively expensive in some areas, which is irritating.

I have also considered using a waterboxer crank in a T1 case, which gets rid of the gland nut (one of the T1 issues I don't like), but still leaves the lack of full flow oiling with the case. This, of course, can be corrected, however, machine work is required.

Basically, you'll have to compromise somewhere. With the T4, you spend money on heads, cooling and exhaust, but you get a stout, factory case and crank (for my mental example, I'm thinking 1915 T1 vs. 1911 T4), On the T1 you spend money on the case, crank and machine work, and you need be careful where you get the case. And I, myself, would only be happy with a wasserboxer crank. There are other issue on both sides, but this may help start the discussion

H2OSB

[eskamobob1]

Sorry about the long wait for a reply on this one. Mind if I ask what the exact disadvantage of the gland nut is? Im still *very* much so learning how these engines go together as a whole tbh.

Also, since it doesnt seem like I will realy be getting exact answers on this one, mind if I ask if you would personaly base a build with the following requirements on a T1 or T4 engine?

I am building an engine to go in my bug that I would like to be able to cruise at 80-90 for extended periods of time (gearing will change as needed, as a new tranny with custom gears was in the plans anyways), get ~30mpg at 65-70, have a decent life expecrtancy (I do about 45k miles a year), and be able to handle an AC unit in stop/go traffic in so cal summers (90F-~100F)

[H2OSB]

There is no real issue with the gland nut, *I* just don't like it. It requires excessive torque to fasten properly. That said, I have a torque meister torque multiplier (HIGHLY recommended), which makes removing and retorquing the gland nut relatively easy. The T4 uses 5 bolts to hold the flywheel to the end of the crank, which you torque to 80 ft.lbs. Btw, the wasser boxer crank fits in a T1 case (with proper bearings) and uses the T4 style bolt up arrangement.

All of your requirements are met with a T4 engine. The huge drawback to a T4 is cost. It feels very difficult to want to spend the money for even a modest T4, when a T1 can be built for far less with equal or greater power, however, that's just surface considerations. There are many other issues such as increased cooling with the T4 that you'll want consider as well.

I'm certainly no expert, and only about 2 steps past you along the path for my own engine build. Any choice you make will require a compromise of some kind, unless you have the "traditional" attitude of believing the car should not deviate from original (absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of keeping the car 100% original, IMO, just not how I roll).

I'm actually very tempted by the idea of building a T1 with a 76mm wasserboxer crank and 94mm pistons and cylinders(thus creating an Oxyboxer), but I'd want a high end case like a TF-1. The advantage of this is quality heads and exhaust are readily available and far cheaper than equivalent T4 parts. That said, the T4 case ALREADY has, from the factory, all the mods a TF-1 has.
Also, any case getting a wasserboxer crank would require machine work(by someone who knows what they're doing).

In the end, only YOU can decide the direction you want to go. As of now, *I* am going 1911cc T4.

H2OSB

[eskamobob1]

0 issues moving away from T1 at all, I’m just trying to figure out if the cost will realy get me what I want. It sounds like what I want is going to be about 6k with 3k of that going towards DTM and exhaust. I wasn’t sure if I’m that range, the extra 3k towards T1 internals would make the engsten benefits of T4 moot tbh.

I guess my other question is, what exactly should be the things I aim for when planning my build to be able to meet my requirements? I have been told about 100HP, but don’t know much else other than lower down power (should?) be more beneficial to freeway cruising.

[H2OSB]

A 1911 (stock 66mm crank with 96mm pistons and cylinders) with the right valves, cam and exhaust will get you about 100hp. A 2056 (stock 71mm crank and 96mm pistons and cylinders) with right valves, cam and exhaust will get you 120-125hp.

H2OSB

[H2OSB]

There is an excellent response to your question(s) by raygreenwood in your sister thread to this one, over on the Samba. I cannot possibly answer even close to Ray. He's an expert on the T4. Go check it out.

H2OSB