Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:18 am
Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
So I could use some advice... last week I bought a new exhaust system for my 69 Ghia ( 1500SP with dual baby 34s ) and in the process of installing it I managed to brake an exhaust stud on each head. Broke them too short to use the double nut trick or even weld a nut to the end. So at this point I decided to pull the heads and rethread them for new studs but at that point It made sence to just pull the motor. This was my first time pulling a VW engine and I got it out in about an hour.
Besided the work I need to do on the heads what are some seals/gaskets/others things I should replace/look over while the engine is out? The are a few leaks I would like to take care of while it out. Ill post pictures later today.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Besided the work I need to do on the heads what are some seals/gaskets/others things I should replace/look over while the engine is out? The are a few leaks I would like to take care of while it out. Ill post pictures later today.
Any advice would be appreciated.
- Marc
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Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
That brings back some unpleasant memories - I did the same thing when I tackled my first muffler job back in 1968 ;(
Unless the exhaust system has only been on for a very short time, "nature's Loctite" often causes stud breakage. Soaking overnight with penetrating oil usually eliminates the problem, but if you don't have the luxury of waiting that long the best way to approach the job is with a sharp cape chisel in hand. Place it against one of the flats of each exhaust nut (parallel to the stud) and strike sharply. Repeat on as many flats as are accessible. Usually that distorts the nut enough to break the rusty threads loose, but if it still resists wrenching off continue with the chisel until you part the nut. If it comes partway off and then seizes up, snug it back down before using the chisel again. Nuts are cheap, and the time spent is far less than what it can take to replace a single broken stud, even if you have a 90° drill chuck and can do it with the engine in the car. Chase the threads with an M8x1.25 die before reassembly.
Is the engine case still the original H5? If so, you may not want to put any more work into it than absolutely necessary - the alloy that `68/`69 cases were cast from is notorious for having problems with pulled studs, cracking, and warpage. If it hasn't had case-savers (steel thread inserts where the head studs go into the case) installed yet you'll want to be very careful not to disturb the studs as you remove the head nuts...soak the upper 8 in penetrating oil overnight before attempting to loosen them.
Another issue which can affect any engine is a loose front main bearing (again, due to the "cottage-cheese" alloy the H5/B5 cases suffer from this more often) which can only be properly repaired in the course of a complete engine teardown. Good practice is to always check the crankshaft endplay before delving too deeply into any less-major repairs. Assuming the last person to install the flywheel set it properly, anything over about .006" is cause for concern that the front main bearing is moving in the case. The looser it gets, the looser it gets - and as it wears, radial clearance to the case increases causing oil pressure to be lost. Also check that the six large case nuts (17 or 19mm wrench size) are all snug; a loose one indicates that the case is hammering out at the main web parting line and the engine's days are numbered.
If everything seems OK up to this point, let's get back to the original question. Unless done recently, it's always a good idea IMO to renew the oil cooler seals and any other gaskets that look like they're leaking (the one at the base of the generator pedestal is particularly time-consuming to replace with the engine in the car), check the condition of the clutch and renew the flywheel seal & O-ring. That last job has some significant pitfalls so it'd be wise to find someone experienced with it to help...ideally, see if there's a pro who'd be willing to let you observe as he does it. When reinstalling the clutch you'll want to use a pilot shaft to ensure the disc is centered, if it's not you'll have a very hard time plugging the engine back in.
When you remove the heads it's common for the cylinders to separate from the case at the bottom. If that happens and you don't reseal them, you can expect some oil leakage there. Typically it's very little, so if you feel lucky just cross your fingers. The worst leaks typically come from a broken paper gasket - hardly anyone uses those anymore, most people just apply a thin bead of RTV to the cylinder base instead, but if the engine's been run with them they shouldn't be removed since that'll cause the top rings to run into the wear ridge...so if you have torn gaskets, the only right way to deal with it is to remove the cylinders and replace them.
Good time to inspect the valve adjusting screws and the wavy washers & spring clips on the rockerarm assemblies.
This is a good time to renew any fuel line that's looking tired. Be sure there's a grommet around the pipe going through the front sheetmetal, if it's missing the tin will slice right through the pipe. Remove the Bowden tube from the accelerator cable and inspect the cable and tube for damage; put some grease in there before reinstallation. The only thing that holds the soda-straw-like tube that passes through the fan shroud in place is a plastic goody that's often worn or missing, allowing the tube to eject towards the carburetor so the Bowden tube loses its preload. Use a small hose clamp on the firewall side of the shroud to secure the tube - it's a whole lot easier to do now than when the engine's back in.
Check your transmission mounts and clutch release bearing - they can't be changed unless the engine's out. Lots easier to inspect & service the clutch cable's Bowden tube now too; at minimum, put some penetrating oil on the clutch cable threads and make sure the wingnut's easy to turn.
It seems to be a rarity anymore for the thermostat and linkage to still be present. Better to have it, but if it's gone take some comfort in knowing that you're not alone. Thermostats have been out of production for years and are hard to come by. If by some stroke of good fortune it is still all there, make sure it's moving freely (put a drop of oil on each of the flap pivot points).
Unless the exhaust system has only been on for a very short time, "nature's Loctite" often causes stud breakage. Soaking overnight with penetrating oil usually eliminates the problem, but if you don't have the luxury of waiting that long the best way to approach the job is with a sharp cape chisel in hand. Place it against one of the flats of each exhaust nut (parallel to the stud) and strike sharply. Repeat on as many flats as are accessible. Usually that distorts the nut enough to break the rusty threads loose, but if it still resists wrenching off continue with the chisel until you part the nut. If it comes partway off and then seizes up, snug it back down before using the chisel again. Nuts are cheap, and the time spent is far less than what it can take to replace a single broken stud, even if you have a 90° drill chuck and can do it with the engine in the car. Chase the threads with an M8x1.25 die before reassembly.
Is the engine case still the original H5? If so, you may not want to put any more work into it than absolutely necessary - the alloy that `68/`69 cases were cast from is notorious for having problems with pulled studs, cracking, and warpage. If it hasn't had case-savers (steel thread inserts where the head studs go into the case) installed yet you'll want to be very careful not to disturb the studs as you remove the head nuts...soak the upper 8 in penetrating oil overnight before attempting to loosen them.
Another issue which can affect any engine is a loose front main bearing (again, due to the "cottage-cheese" alloy the H5/B5 cases suffer from this more often) which can only be properly repaired in the course of a complete engine teardown. Good practice is to always check the crankshaft endplay before delving too deeply into any less-major repairs. Assuming the last person to install the flywheel set it properly, anything over about .006" is cause for concern that the front main bearing is moving in the case. The looser it gets, the looser it gets - and as it wears, radial clearance to the case increases causing oil pressure to be lost. Also check that the six large case nuts (17 or 19mm wrench size) are all snug; a loose one indicates that the case is hammering out at the main web parting line and the engine's days are numbered.
If everything seems OK up to this point, let's get back to the original question. Unless done recently, it's always a good idea IMO to renew the oil cooler seals and any other gaskets that look like they're leaking (the one at the base of the generator pedestal is particularly time-consuming to replace with the engine in the car), check the condition of the clutch and renew the flywheel seal & O-ring. That last job has some significant pitfalls so it'd be wise to find someone experienced with it to help...ideally, see if there's a pro who'd be willing to let you observe as he does it. When reinstalling the clutch you'll want to use a pilot shaft to ensure the disc is centered, if it's not you'll have a very hard time plugging the engine back in.
When you remove the heads it's common for the cylinders to separate from the case at the bottom. If that happens and you don't reseal them, you can expect some oil leakage there. Typically it's very little, so if you feel lucky just cross your fingers. The worst leaks typically come from a broken paper gasket - hardly anyone uses those anymore, most people just apply a thin bead of RTV to the cylinder base instead, but if the engine's been run with them they shouldn't be removed since that'll cause the top rings to run into the wear ridge...so if you have torn gaskets, the only right way to deal with it is to remove the cylinders and replace them.
Good time to inspect the valve adjusting screws and the wavy washers & spring clips on the rockerarm assemblies.
This is a good time to renew any fuel line that's looking tired. Be sure there's a grommet around the pipe going through the front sheetmetal, if it's missing the tin will slice right through the pipe. Remove the Bowden tube from the accelerator cable and inspect the cable and tube for damage; put some grease in there before reinstallation. The only thing that holds the soda-straw-like tube that passes through the fan shroud in place is a plastic goody that's often worn or missing, allowing the tube to eject towards the carburetor so the Bowden tube loses its preload. Use a small hose clamp on the firewall side of the shroud to secure the tube - it's a whole lot easier to do now than when the engine's back in.
Check your transmission mounts and clutch release bearing - they can't be changed unless the engine's out. Lots easier to inspect & service the clutch cable's Bowden tube now too; at minimum, put some penetrating oil on the clutch cable threads and make sure the wingnut's easy to turn.
It seems to be a rarity anymore for the thermostat and linkage to still be present. Better to have it, but if it's gone take some comfort in knowing that you're not alone. Thermostats have been out of production for years and are hard to come by. If by some stroke of good fortune it is still all there, make sure it's moving freely (put a drop of oil on each of the flap pivot points).
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- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:18 am
Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
Marc , thanks so much for the elaborate reply! It's much appreciated.
Last night I got rocker assemblies and head nuts off. Even with a full day of soaking from penetrating fluid 3 out of the top 8 nuts would not brake loose from the studs and the whole stud came out. The studs go in and out of the case very smoothly so I dont this its a huge issue. I tried to get one of the head off but It felt like it was binding on something. (stupid question alert!) The only thing holding the heads on is the 8 head bolts correct? I tried tapping the head on the exhaust port area to try to loosen it but didnt get to far before It was dinner time and I wrapped things up. Later today I will give it another go.
Here's pictures of the engine. You can see there is alot of oil and grime everywhere.
Seems like most of it is coming from the push rod tubes and also between the engine and tranny. Theres a nastry caked on oily mess under the tranny area. I can only assume its the seal behind the clutch/flywheel assembly.
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330783.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330782.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330781.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330780.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330779.jpg
Last night I got rocker assemblies and head nuts off. Even with a full day of soaking from penetrating fluid 3 out of the top 8 nuts would not brake loose from the studs and the whole stud came out. The studs go in and out of the case very smoothly so I dont this its a huge issue. I tried to get one of the head off but It felt like it was binding on something. (stupid question alert!) The only thing holding the heads on is the 8 head bolts correct? I tried tapping the head on the exhaust port area to try to loosen it but didnt get to far before It was dinner time and I wrapped things up. Later today I will give it another go.
Here's pictures of the engine. You can see there is alot of oil and grime everywhere.
Seems like most of it is coming from the push rod tubes and also between the engine and tranny. Theres a nastry caked on oily mess under the tranny area. I can only assume its the seal behind the clutch/flywheel assembly.
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330783.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330782.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330781.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330780.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1330779.jpg
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- Posts: 1925
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:20 am
Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
#1,
As long as the exhaust, and intakes are off, which it is, the only thing holding the heads on is the 8ea head stud nuts. It is normal for the heads to not want to come off. use a rubber mallet, preferrably a dead blow, and be careful of the fins, as they like to snap off.
#2,
probably time for a set of pushrod tube seals.
#3
Also inspect the area behind the throwout bearing, as the trans input seal can also leak
Rob
As long as the exhaust, and intakes are off, which it is, the only thing holding the heads on is the 8ea head stud nuts. It is normal for the heads to not want to come off. use a rubber mallet, preferrably a dead blow, and be careful of the fins, as they like to snap off.
#2,
probably time for a set of pushrod tube seals.
#3
Also inspect the area behind the throwout bearing, as the trans input seal can also leak
Rob
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Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
You think I can just replace the seals with some new silicone ones? One guy told me to replace to tubes as well. I'd rather not if I don't need to.
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- Posts: 1925
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:20 am
Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
tubes are cheap, but not really necessary. many people reuse the ones they already have, if there are no holes.
I hate the rusty look, so I would either paint them for reuse, or install new (stainless is available)
be aware of the proper installation technique either way you go.
Silicone seals is definitely the way to go.
Rob
I hate the rusty look, so I would either paint them for reuse, or install new (stainless is available)
be aware of the proper installation technique either way you go.
Silicone seals is definitely the way to go.
Rob
- Marc
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- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
From the "clean" look at the bottom-center of the front of that case, I'd say there's little doubt that the front seal is leaking. What's the endplay measure? What's the case ID letter/number stamped under the generator pedestal?
A scrap piece of 2x4 is your friend when dealing with "stuck" heads - you can use it as a drift against the exhaust port bosses, making it much easier to control the focus of your hammer blows and eliminating the risk of bending fins (or worse, snapping off a cylinder fin). The head needs to come off pretty straight or it'll bind on the cylinder spigots so you'll need to work from side to side to "walk" it free. Can't hurt to squirt some penetrant around where the cylinders plug into the head, there's often some carbon and corrosion buildup in there.
Avoid the temptation to simply screw those headstuds back in like bolts when you reinstall the heads. Take a few minutes to remove the frozen nuts in the vise and clean up the threads (M10x1.5) so they spin freely...otherwise you'll get a false torque reading. Note that (on almost all cases) four studs on each side go into "blind" holes in the case but the others' holes pass through - a dab of sealant on the threads before you screw in the stud can prevent oil leakage there.
Aftermarket deep sumps like that often develop some leakage over time where they meet the case. The six stock sump studs need to be replaced with longer ones, and an oft-overlooked point is that one of those studs also serves as an anchor point for the oil pump pickup tube holddown nut inside the engine (so it needs to be even longer than the others; accessing that shakeproof nut and washer on an assembled engine is challenging). I would pull the sump off and verify that the hardware's all in good order, checking the pickup holddown nut in particular, and reassemble using shakeproof nuts. It's not a fun job now on the bench, but it's even worse laying on your back under the car with oil dripping in your eye.
The trans appears to be late`72 or newer. Does it have one sideplate (where the axles attach) or two? If it's a single sideplate (`73-up) there's cause for concern about how the front mount was made compatible with a `69 chassis. The rear mounts look pretty bad in the picture, they need changing for sure.
If you're going to reuse the old tubes, after you've cleaned them up they'll need to be stretched slightly (new, they're nearly ½" longer and compress when installed). This should be done cautiously so that none of the accordian pleats tear open; I find a deep socket that fits well into the end and insert it far enough to provide a "handle" that I can use to wriggle/tug on the pleated section. Then test for leaks by putting one end against the palm of your hand and sucking on the other; place your tongue over the end and see if it holds vacuum. The ends can be quite sharp so do this carefully.
When you reinstall the tubes/heads, the ends of the tubes should be tweaked a bit so that the seals seat squarely - the best time to do this is before the head's pulled quite all the way on, when you're doublechecking to make sure you remembered the deflector plates ...slight side pressure near the end is all it takes, for the outboard end inserting that deep socket works nicely. I like to apply a film of Curil to the face of the seal for insurance when using the chalky-looking seals that come in many gasket sets; with the nice high-silicon ones it shouldn't be needed. Tip: ideally you'll have the engine in a stand as you put the head on and will be able to tip it on its side, but if not a second set of hands will help to manage the tubes - or toss the pushrods in to keep the tubes from falling out of place as you line everything up.
I'd wager that the oil puddled in the bellhousing is from the engine (smell it - trans fluid has an acrid odor due to the sulphur-based additive package, it's been likened to cat piss) but it's not too hard to replace the input shaft seal if you want to be thorough...hardest part is getting the old one out if you don't have the right tool for the job.
10mm box wrench modified to allow tightening the oil pump pickup holddown nut ...1/12th of a turn at a time
A scrap piece of 2x4 is your friend when dealing with "stuck" heads - you can use it as a drift against the exhaust port bosses, making it much easier to control the focus of your hammer blows and eliminating the risk of bending fins (or worse, snapping off a cylinder fin). The head needs to come off pretty straight or it'll bind on the cylinder spigots so you'll need to work from side to side to "walk" it free. Can't hurt to squirt some penetrant around where the cylinders plug into the head, there's often some carbon and corrosion buildup in there.
Avoid the temptation to simply screw those headstuds back in like bolts when you reinstall the heads. Take a few minutes to remove the frozen nuts in the vise and clean up the threads (M10x1.5) so they spin freely...otherwise you'll get a false torque reading. Note that (on almost all cases) four studs on each side go into "blind" holes in the case but the others' holes pass through - a dab of sealant on the threads before you screw in the stud can prevent oil leakage there.
Aftermarket deep sumps like that often develop some leakage over time where they meet the case. The six stock sump studs need to be replaced with longer ones, and an oft-overlooked point is that one of those studs also serves as an anchor point for the oil pump pickup tube holddown nut inside the engine (so it needs to be even longer than the others; accessing that shakeproof nut and washer on an assembled engine is challenging). I would pull the sump off and verify that the hardware's all in good order, checking the pickup holddown nut in particular, and reassemble using shakeproof nuts. It's not a fun job now on the bench, but it's even worse laying on your back under the car with oil dripping in your eye.
The trans appears to be late`72 or newer. Does it have one sideplate (where the axles attach) or two? If it's a single sideplate (`73-up) there's cause for concern about how the front mount was made compatible with a `69 chassis. The rear mounts look pretty bad in the picture, they need changing for sure.
If you're going to reuse the old tubes, after you've cleaned them up they'll need to be stretched slightly (new, they're nearly ½" longer and compress when installed). This should be done cautiously so that none of the accordian pleats tear open; I find a deep socket that fits well into the end and insert it far enough to provide a "handle" that I can use to wriggle/tug on the pleated section. Then test for leaks by putting one end against the palm of your hand and sucking on the other; place your tongue over the end and see if it holds vacuum. The ends can be quite sharp so do this carefully.
When you reinstall the tubes/heads, the ends of the tubes should be tweaked a bit so that the seals seat squarely - the best time to do this is before the head's pulled quite all the way on, when you're doublechecking to make sure you remembered the deflector plates ...slight side pressure near the end is all it takes, for the outboard end inserting that deep socket works nicely. I like to apply a film of Curil to the face of the seal for insurance when using the chalky-looking seals that come in many gasket sets; with the nice high-silicon ones it shouldn't be needed. Tip: ideally you'll have the engine in a stand as you put the head on and will be able to tip it on its side, but if not a second set of hands will help to manage the tubes - or toss the pushrods in to keep the tubes from falling out of place as you line everything up.
I'd wager that the oil puddled in the bellhousing is from the engine (smell it - trans fluid has an acrid odor due to the sulphur-based additive package, it's been likened to cat piss) but it's not too hard to replace the input shaft seal if you want to be thorough...hardest part is getting the old one out if you don't have the right tool for the job.
10mm box wrench modified to allow tightening the oil pump pickup holddown nut ...1/12th of a turn at a time
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:18 am
Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
Thanks again for all the suggestions guys!
At this point I may as well order new tubes as they are indeed cheap. With silicone seals.
Aftermarket deep sump? I was under the impression everything under there was completely stock. Is there something I should know about it? Why was it installed ? Does it change my oil capacity ? etc...
I'll check the transmission later today when I go out. I'll also get some new mounts when I order parts. In the 4 years i've owned the car I've never had any issues with it. Granted only putting maybe 500 miles on the car.
If that puddle is indeed from the engine what seal should be replaced ? Behind the clutch I take it ?
Thanks again guys!
At this point I may as well order new tubes as they are indeed cheap. With silicone seals.
Aftermarket deep sump? I was under the impression everything under there was completely stock. Is there something I should know about it? Why was it installed ? Does it change my oil capacity ? etc...
I'll check the transmission later today when I go out. I'll also get some new mounts when I order parts. In the 4 years i've owned the car I've never had any issues with it. Granted only putting maybe 500 miles on the car.
If that puddle is indeed from the engine what seal should be replaced ? Behind the clutch I take it ?
Thanks again guys!
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- Posts: 1925
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:20 am
Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
the aftermarket sump adds oil capacity..
Yours appears to be a 1.5ish quart model.
It attaches using the same arrangement your oil sump cover plate does, just top the original bottom of the case.
I will not debate whether this is good or bad, I will simply address your question as to why.
The main reason people do this is that the VW engine only holds 2.5 Q of oil.
My Briggs and Stratton lawnmower hold that much......
Yours appears to be a 1.5ish quart model.
It attaches using the same arrangement your oil sump cover plate does, just top the original bottom of the case.
I will not debate whether this is good or bad, I will simply address your question as to why.
The main reason people do this is that the VW engine only holds 2.5 Q of oil.
My Briggs and Stratton lawnmower hold that much......
- Marc
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Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
For the third time, please tell us what the case ID is and what the endplay measures. If it's an H5 with a loose thrust bearing you're wasting your time (and ours).
If you've spent even half the time reading my responses as I have in writing them, you would know the answer to that question - you'd also realize that you're probably in way over your head replacing it.KarmannMarco wrote:...If that puddle is indeed from the engine what seal should be replaced ? Behind the clutch I take it ?...
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Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
The case number is H5439424
Excuse my lack of specialty tools so I roughly measured my end play. ( hope I did this right ) I laid down a ruler next to the flywheel right up against the edge. I pushed and pulled the flywheel back and forth and kept an eye on the ruler. The flywheels moved back and forth exactly 1/32 of an inch which converted is .031...... even if my measurement is not very accurate a visually decisive 1/32 of an inch it way past specs. Is the engine pretty much done for ? Is it even worth investing in stopping these oil leaks ? Before I took it apart it ran decently.
To make things even more challenging the transmission has one side plate. Part number 113.301.1031 , which seems to be from a super beetle. Is this cause for concern ?
Ive driven this car for maybe a total of 500 miles or maybe even less. In that time It's always ran pretty good and shifts good too.
Not sure if these pictures are relevant anymore but I had a few more concerns.
Is this stud too close to the flywheel? Not sure if Im optically challenged but the stud looks slightly bent to me. However the distance between the two bottom studs and the distance between the bottom holes on the transmission match.
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331269.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331268.jpg
Two of my eight push rods are thinner then the rest. I checked them all for straightness and they do look good. Are these thinner ones replacements done at some point maybe ?
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331267.jpg
Stupid question maybe.... Does this clutch look worn ?
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331266.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331265.jpg
One of the valves on one of the heads is considerable different in color. Any reason for this?
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331263.jpg
Thanks again everyone.
I've already learned alot in this endeavor.
I do hope to be able to put the engine back together and at least get a few miles out of it.
Excuse my lack of specialty tools so I roughly measured my end play. ( hope I did this right ) I laid down a ruler next to the flywheel right up against the edge. I pushed and pulled the flywheel back and forth and kept an eye on the ruler. The flywheels moved back and forth exactly 1/32 of an inch which converted is .031...... even if my measurement is not very accurate a visually decisive 1/32 of an inch it way past specs. Is the engine pretty much done for ? Is it even worth investing in stopping these oil leaks ? Before I took it apart it ran decently.
To make things even more challenging the transmission has one side plate. Part number 113.301.1031 , which seems to be from a super beetle. Is this cause for concern ?
Ive driven this car for maybe a total of 500 miles or maybe even less. In that time It's always ran pretty good and shifts good too.
Not sure if these pictures are relevant anymore but I had a few more concerns.
Is this stud too close to the flywheel? Not sure if Im optically challenged but the stud looks slightly bent to me. However the distance between the two bottom studs and the distance between the bottom holes on the transmission match.
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331269.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331268.jpg
Two of my eight push rods are thinner then the rest. I checked them all for straightness and they do look good. Are these thinner ones replacements done at some point maybe ?
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331267.jpg
Stupid question maybe.... Does this clutch look worn ?
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331266.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331265.jpg
One of the valves on one of the heads is considerable different in color. Any reason for this?
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1331263.jpg
Thanks again everyone.
I've already learned alot in this endeavor.
I do hope to be able to put the engine back together and at least get a few miles out of it.
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- Posts: 1925
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:20 am
Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
first off, purchase the John Muir book "how to keep your VW alive" AKA the idiot's manual. (no offense, it is in the title of the book.
All of the wear specifications are in there. also, in the first set of pages, it even has a tool requirements discussion broken down by the level of maintenance you will be able to accomplish.
Secondly, you will will will need feeler gauges to maintain this engine. you need an accurate measurement of the end play, and the feeler gauges can do this.
thirdly, if you only wish this engine to run for a bit, replace the exhaust studs, screw the head studs back in, ignore all else until it quits.
Lastly SSC (single side cover) transaxles are considered among the stronger of the Type 1 trans. Case wise that is.
All of the wear specifications are in there. also, in the first set of pages, it even has a tool requirements discussion broken down by the level of maintenance you will be able to accomplish.
Secondly, you will will will need feeler gauges to maintain this engine. you need an accurate measurement of the end play, and the feeler gauges can do this.
thirdly, if you only wish this engine to run for a bit, replace the exhaust studs, screw the head studs back in, ignore all else until it quits.
Lastly SSC (single side cover) transaxles are considered among the stronger of the Type 1 trans. Case wise that is.
- Marc
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Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
IIRC the "Idiot Book" shows a way to measure the endplay accurately with feeler gauges - basically you just use a long bolt and some miscellaneous spacers to suspend a wrench or something just past the flywheel so you can measure the distance between them with the crankshaft pushed one direction, then clunk it the other way and remeasure. "Normal" (~.004-.005") endplay is barely perceptible to the eye and the accompanying sound is also fairly subtle. When the thrust bearing's walking in the case, there's a more pronounced thunk when you push back & forth on the flywheel.
An-n-nyway, ~.031" is definitely in undesirable territory - the engine needs an overhaul, and since it's an H5 it'd be foolhardy to invest the time & money into this case. There's only one thing which could be done for it short of a complete teardown, and that's "peening" the thrust bearing flange to deform it so that it contacts the case in six or so places - that'll keep it from moving as much each time you step on the clutch and reduce the rate of wear. But this is no operation for a novice. Ignore any advice to reduce the endplay by adding to the flywheel shim thickness, that's NOT where the excess play is and will only guarantee engine seizure.
If the engine was in my shop we'd have this knocked out in fifteen minutes - a lot less time than it would take to try and talk a rookie through it even if he had the right tools for the job.
Your best bet is to slap this thing back together and drive it. Pull it into neutral every time you're rolling up to a red light (the object being to minimize time spent with the clutch pedal depressed, which pushes against the ailing thrust bearing).
It's going to leak oil from the front seal, so check it often. There's really no point in replacing it without peening the bearing. Eventually that H5 case will probably crack down the front at the base of #3 cylinder and when the crack propagates to the softplug at one of the oil gallery drillings the plug'll pop out, followed by all of the oil in the engine within half a block. Got AAA?
The smaller-diameter pushrod looks to be aftermarket steel rather than OEM aluminum. Perhaps a slightly different length was needed to compensate for uneven valve installed heights. Did you keep them in order so you know which one goes back where?
Clutch looks fine; engine-to-trans stud is in its normal location. If it's bent a little you should be able to straighten it in place, but first I'd try two-blocking a couple of nuts on it and backing it out - usually they come out fairly easily.
The exhaust valve colors are within the normal range...the tan one's the better-looking, the black one indicates a problem (possibly nothing more than a minor mixture discrepancy, if the engine was idled a bit prior to pulling it that wouldn't surprise me with those carbs). Anyway, that's the least of your worries.
I would prop the heads up so the chambers can be filled with solvent and let them sit overnight to see if there's any leakage into the ports.
The black regions in the cylinder seating areas indicate that there's been compression leakage there for a while. Makes me wonder if your "muffler" noise might've been augmented by the sound of loose heads. If you were rebuilding this engine you'd have the heads machined to clean that up (they call it "flycutting") but again, the engine's not going to last long enough to make that cost-effective right now. IMO you're better off saving up for a replacement.
You've reported one of the transaxle case casting numbers - the stamped-in number yields more information, look here: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=99606
Single-sidecover transaxles used a three-bolt nosecone and a different type of front mount. There are basically two ways to go about fitting one into a pre`73 chassis; either replace the nosecone with the early 2-bolt style or use an aftermarket adapter mount. The problem with the first solution is that the early nosecone can interfere with the ball cage on the larger late mainshaft bearing (a little judicious work with a Dremel can fix that.) There are three types of adapter mount, each with its own issues. The black-rubber ones fall apart in no time and the solid-steel ones are horrid for street use. The least-bad of the three is the red urethane type. Its biggest issue is that the little spacer sleeves it uses are too loose of a fit in the casting, so no matter how tight you get the nuts there's still play at the mount. Wrapping the sleeves with duct tape (the real, metal-foil kind - not the fabric stuff) until they're a force-fit into the holes in the urethane solves that. Then you find that the ground strap won't fit comfortably anymore...I just relocate it to go between one of the rear mount-to-cradle bolts and a nearby sidecover stud.
OBTW, those aren't 1500 cylinders. Looks like it was upsized to 1600 at some point, making it all the more surprising that it's still on the road. H5s were being replaced under warranty when they were nearly new, modifications to increase their output are generally the kiss of death.
An-n-nyway, ~.031" is definitely in undesirable territory - the engine needs an overhaul, and since it's an H5 it'd be foolhardy to invest the time & money into this case. There's only one thing which could be done for it short of a complete teardown, and that's "peening" the thrust bearing flange to deform it so that it contacts the case in six or so places - that'll keep it from moving as much each time you step on the clutch and reduce the rate of wear. But this is no operation for a novice. Ignore any advice to reduce the endplay by adding to the flywheel shim thickness, that's NOT where the excess play is and will only guarantee engine seizure.
If the engine was in my shop we'd have this knocked out in fifteen minutes - a lot less time than it would take to try and talk a rookie through it even if he had the right tools for the job.
Your best bet is to slap this thing back together and drive it. Pull it into neutral every time you're rolling up to a red light (the object being to minimize time spent with the clutch pedal depressed, which pushes against the ailing thrust bearing).
It's going to leak oil from the front seal, so check it often. There's really no point in replacing it without peening the bearing. Eventually that H5 case will probably crack down the front at the base of #3 cylinder and when the crack propagates to the softplug at one of the oil gallery drillings the plug'll pop out, followed by all of the oil in the engine within half a block. Got AAA?
The smaller-diameter pushrod looks to be aftermarket steel rather than OEM aluminum. Perhaps a slightly different length was needed to compensate for uneven valve installed heights. Did you keep them in order so you know which one goes back where?
Clutch looks fine; engine-to-trans stud is in its normal location. If it's bent a little you should be able to straighten it in place, but first I'd try two-blocking a couple of nuts on it and backing it out - usually they come out fairly easily.
The exhaust valve colors are within the normal range...the tan one's the better-looking, the black one indicates a problem (possibly nothing more than a minor mixture discrepancy, if the engine was idled a bit prior to pulling it that wouldn't surprise me with those carbs). Anyway, that's the least of your worries.
I would prop the heads up so the chambers can be filled with solvent and let them sit overnight to see if there's any leakage into the ports.
The black regions in the cylinder seating areas indicate that there's been compression leakage there for a while. Makes me wonder if your "muffler" noise might've been augmented by the sound of loose heads. If you were rebuilding this engine you'd have the heads machined to clean that up (they call it "flycutting") but again, the engine's not going to last long enough to make that cost-effective right now. IMO you're better off saving up for a replacement.
You've reported one of the transaxle case casting numbers - the stamped-in number yields more information, look here: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=99606
Single-sidecover transaxles used a three-bolt nosecone and a different type of front mount. There are basically two ways to go about fitting one into a pre`73 chassis; either replace the nosecone with the early 2-bolt style or use an aftermarket adapter mount. The problem with the first solution is that the early nosecone can interfere with the ball cage on the larger late mainshaft bearing (a little judicious work with a Dremel can fix that.) There are three types of adapter mount, each with its own issues. The black-rubber ones fall apart in no time and the solid-steel ones are horrid for street use. The least-bad of the three is the red urethane type. Its biggest issue is that the little spacer sleeves it uses are too loose of a fit in the casting, so no matter how tight you get the nuts there's still play at the mount. Wrapping the sleeves with duct tape (the real, metal-foil kind - not the fabric stuff) until they're a force-fit into the holes in the urethane solves that. Then you find that the ground strap won't fit comfortably anymore...I just relocate it to go between one of the rear mount-to-cradle bolts and a nearby sidecover stud.
OBTW, those aren't 1500 cylinders. Looks like it was upsized to 1600 at some point, making it all the more surprising that it's still on the road. H5s were being replaced under warranty when they were nearly new, modifications to increase their output are generally the kiss of death.
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Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
Thanks for all the advice and for writing these great write ups.
Ill get some new pushrod tubes seals , replace the head studs and put it back together.
While it still runs I will start saving for a 1600DP.
Ill get some new pushrod tubes seals , replace the head studs and put it back together.
While it still runs I will start saving for a 1600DP.
- doc
- Site Admin
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- Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:38 pm
Re: Pulled the engine out of my Ghia for the first time....
Make you first investment the John Muir book. It's a book that's almost a fun read even if you aren't trying to fix something specific. It'll give you a solid background on the vw's sytems and how they work. It's written for the beginner and often used by experts. Worth it, if you're interested in doing your own car work or just becoming a smarter buyer.
Good luck! Keep us posted.
doc
Good luck! Keep us posted.
doc