Turbo, small T4 and the stock cam,

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MattKab
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Post by MattKab » Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:47 am

Well I've not done any work on the airflow monitoring, but I have been busy.

I've spent a few evenings prototyping my own TC sparkplugs. I was prepared to notch the sparkplug counterbores for the wires to come up clear of the plug, so the washer will sit still and the plug to screw through it into the head.

I've been promised one of the first batch of Innovate's new TC-4, but I've just heard of a further delay, a problem at the moulding house.. The manual has been released, check here: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/foru ... 1143059563

Anyway, I need 4 CHT TC's that I can just drop into my current T1, so I can gain some experience with the stock system.

I'm fitting a stainless bead K-type into the lower body of each sparkplug, I'll take a picture later today.

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This is the hose to the oil-cooler, that will be under the rear valance, where the stock exhaust is now.

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I'm going to finish the fanshroud today, making the stock system adjustable is a lot of work. It's coming along nicely.

I have 6m of armoured and screened Chromel-Alumel wire, I'll hook up as many TC's as is possible. Using the proper K-type connectors, I'll be able to switch between probes. I'll only be able to see 4 at any one time. I could easily daisy-chain another TC-4 for an additional 4 channels into the datalogger. But the budget for the engine is tough.

I'll have the cooling assembled tonight, ready for crating up and storing while I prepare the entire garage for case assembly, can't wait to move on!

Matt
1979 Karmann Beetle with 1.8ti T4 (still pastel yellow)
1970 411 Variant (black) daily driver
1964 lil' window Beetle (soon to be black)

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MattKab
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Post by MattKab » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:14 pm

Sorry about the size :P

SOME HUGE PICS REMOVED

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The welding is done on the fanshroud, the 'Air Management' plans are underway :D
Last edited by MattKab on Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1979 Karmann Beetle with 1.8ti T4 (still pastel yellow)
1970 411 Variant (black) daily driver
1964 lil' window Beetle (soon to be black)

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MattKab
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Post by MattKab » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:48 pm

Image

And finally for tonight, modified T25 dipstick:

Image
1979 Karmann Beetle with 1.8ti T4 (still pastel yellow)
1970 411 Variant (black) daily driver
1964 lil' window Beetle (soon to be black)

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jonas_linder
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Post by jonas_linder » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:23 pm

Looks great!! :)

Keep 'em coming ;)

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slowtwitch
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Post by slowtwitch » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:28 pm

WOW!! Very nice, Matt. Like Jonas said, "Keep them coming"

pete

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type3
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Post by type3 » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:25 pm

The tins have come out very well! :D Keep it up!


cheers,
type3

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jonas n
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Post by jonas n » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:03 pm

really nice cooling tins! :shock:

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MattKab
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Post by MattKab » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:03 pm

Thanks! :D Let's hope are friends 1,2,3 and 4 agree!

Help me with this:

HUGE PIC REMOVED

The vents through the head between the intake tract seem too large to be exposed to near 100% pure blown air on #1/#2 head, looking at the stock t4 under-tins in this area, I can see how VW created some eddy to cool the underside of the head. The area of this venting is clearly bigger as the pressure drop/slowing of the same air comes from the under-tin, so it still picks up heat. By using only the T1 undertins, and thermal gas imaging, If such a thing exists, I would expect to see a cooler stream of air from this region. Which may also be the coolest part of the head to begin with. Do you also see this as a short coming?

Herr Klaus has seen this too. His vision is MUCH clearer than mine, he's been looking MUCH longer. I love his work. His under-tins work very differently I know, but I can see the seed of his idea in the T4 under-tins. I can see a hybrid being tried, bastard PR tubes :x

Matt
Last edited by MattKab on Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1979 Karmann Beetle with 1.8ti T4 (still pastel yellow)
1970 411 Variant (black) daily driver
1964 lil' window Beetle (soon to be black)

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Wally
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Post by Wally » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:35 am

Hi Matt,

I believe I don't fully understand your question.. :oops:
The larger central holes in the head are used with the stock under-cylinder tin to redirect the air to blow some at the underside of the head fins. I think we agree as thats how it is designed by VW and it is easy to understand how it works just lookng at the diffenrent stock parts.

With an upright cooling, Jake says he has always gotten lower head temps with the flat Type 1 under-cylinder tins. I believe him, but I don't understand why as some parts of the underhead fins are not directly blown against any more with the type 1 tins.. :?
Probably has to do with better air pressure and subsequent better flow, of which the type 1 fan is greatly dependent upon, if I have understood correctly.

Another thing maybe to consider is the temp gradient through the top and lower part of the head.
We always measure under the spark plug, which is at the top of the head. Our cooling air also blows from above. The head fins around the spark plug will be the best cooled, as they are the first to recieve the cold air, but how about the lower fins/ head part? We usually never measure headtemps at that side!
Maybe the type 4 undercylinder tins are very helpfull in getting the temps down in that area of the head. That may also result in getting a little higher headtemps at the upper part of the head as a side-effect, but maybe the benefits outweight the total results?
What would be more important: equally cooled compared to other cylinders or equally cooled across the same head of one cylinder?
Still having much longer cylinder studs at the bottom of the head, does warrant extra carefull cooling considerations for the bottom and yes, Klaus did notice this probably as well, hence the extra parts being made for it.
Please do notice that his special under-cylinder tins do not work stand-alone!! His shroud is specially designed for it. I even believe that he has the voids welded shut when his RSK-system is adapted.
Just some thoughts :wink:

Regards,
Walter
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

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jonas_linder
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Post by jonas_linder » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:07 am

I don't have anything to say about the heads and your theories but I must say that your "module" intake system is really cool 8) I didn't notice it earlier :)

Please make your pictures 800x600 as max, It's really difficult to see anything when they get so big ;)

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dstar5000
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Post by dstar5000 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:28 am

T4 heads see PRESSURE, whilst T1 heads see VELOCITY, and have
to turn that velocity INTO pressure.....

In the T4 setup, the highest velocity is seen at the top of the shrouding
ENTERING into the plenum that feeds the heads, on a T1 the velocity
hits the center of the head, which is why T1 tins are designed differently
than T4.

So, in conclusion, when using a T1 fan(VELOCITY), the T1 tins work
more efficiently.

Don
‎"Let me say it as simply as I can: transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones
of this presidency,".. Barack Obama January 21, 2009, 30 minutes before he signed the law
sealing all his personal information....

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MattKab
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Post by MattKab » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:27 pm

Excellent feedback, thanks! Wally, I suppose the question would be better phrased as 'Does the norm look optimised to you?'

By hybrid I meant T1 under the pots and T4-like, under the head.

I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, just trying to make my own wheel round-er :)

Heat impacts the pressure and velocity. The area of discharge is big enough to experiment with. There is a solution in there, I think.

I can see how the T1 undertins work in unison with the cylinder tins, to get the flow around the fins, to keep the cooling effect more even, keeping the cylinder 'round'. That is figured, I just have to watch how this is affected by the rest of the system.

At the head, is where I want to improve things, leaving the heads bare on the underside cannot be optimum IMO. I don't want the heat to linger, but allowing it to average out due to stale air and then tuning the whole thing, to attain 4 similar sparkplug washer temps is not good enough for me. I need atleast 4 TC's on each cylinder, so I can see 4 temps for each CHT. As well as 4 CHT's. I want to see the temps where they become problems. I do expect to see 16 different temps, how, when and why they differ is what interests me. Particularly chasing high and low temps for months on end, for recreation.. I can't be too healthy :shock:

Another problem is measuring temps without infuencing the temp being measured, by the presence of the bead/wires.. If there was scores of small TC all over the engine at the roots of the finnage, the data would be near useless as it wouldn't represent the system without the probes and wires. :o

In the end when the CHT can be reduced to a single probe (if the project succeeds that far) I'd like the probe to be internal, maybe only mm's away from the combustion. I'm really looking forward to this testing, there is so much to learn.

I don't know why that last picture came out so huge, they were from a camera, the Nokia is better for pics I agree. Thanks for the tip :wink:

Matt
1979 Karmann Beetle with 1.8ti T4 (still pastel yellow)
1970 411 Variant (black) daily driver
1964 lil' window Beetle (soon to be black)

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MattKab
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Post by MattKab » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:26 pm

I've assembled my engine. I'm very happy about a stock engine! I dismantled the mock-up motor to mount the clean case ready for assembly. I didn't mock-up the painted tinware as at the time I was frustrated about the amount of down-time due to mocking-up and looking at the thing.. I wanted a major tidy up and all the dust/swarf sorting.

I assembled the tinware 'free-standing' :? for a pic. The tinware will go on right after the heads are nailed down.

It looks very ugly:

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I've side-tracked myself to working on my next daily hack (It's not a hearse, I'm tired of that now :roll: Isn't it just dope??

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To get this thread back ON TOPIC :cry: Here's the mentioned stock cam from a German import Westfalia in an otherwise stock 914 AN/small turbo T4 :D

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When everything is up and running in a year or so, in goes another cam, maybe a head change and stuff.

MS build is next. When that is done I can build my turboheader on the mock-up engine, really looking forward to that. I have a GT17 enroute :P

Matt
1979 Karmann Beetle with 1.8ti T4 (still pastel yellow)
1970 411 Variant (black) daily driver
1964 lil' window Beetle (soon to be black)

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MattKab
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Post by MattKab » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:20 pm

Hello again, ~2 full years have passed so it's time for another update!

The MS is just brilliant, I rigged up an axial VR EDIS set-up for my T1, after getting eveything installed in the car, I wanted to try out the MS.

The T4 engine still gets a bit of work each week, All that is needed to finish (parts wise) is a large air/air charge cooler, water cooler for the turbo and an exhaust silencer!!

Intake is almost finished. As is the exhaust.

That 411 will be at the second Euro Bug-In!

My Beetle is driving fantastic.

I'll post some pics this week.

Matt
1979 Karmann Beetle with 1.8ti T4 (still pastel yellow)
1970 411 Variant (black) daily driver
1964 lil' window Beetle (soon to be black)

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jonas_linder
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Post by jonas_linder » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:33 pm

Let us see some pictures then ;)

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