F.I. To Carb Conversion for Vanagon

This is the place to discuss, or get help with any of your Type 4 questions.
Capn Skully
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Post by Capn Skully »

raygreenwood wrote:The hot start problems are easy to solve. Others opinions...may differ...and I have argued long with them...and care not to anymore......mainly because I have never found a single fuel injection system that I cannot solve ALL of the hot start issues with.
You have to understnd what happens with each part in the system...and not just what the VOM says...based upon what the factory says it should say.

Think about these things. And...don't kid yourself, if the engine basic mechanical state and its compression are not well...nothing will help you, because that affects the metering system.
For starting you need correct fule mixture. If your fuel ixture is not correct in the first place, meaning you are either rich or lean, you will have trouble starting because that condition will be magnified.

Hot starting is usually caused by one of several things. One of the primary causes, is a combination of the CHT being maxed out...and staying that way because it banks heat (this causes a lean condition)....AND couple that with a fuel pressure regulator that is leaking down too quickly. Add to that an auxiliary air regulator that may open back up too quickly (It cools off too quick). So you have air bypassing (lean). Fuel pressure may be low or not stable (lean) and CHT is maxed (still around 100 ohms or lower).

This is most prevalent on L-jet and digijet. It is less of a problem with digifant due to the fact that they have re-added the fuel pump "buzz" or pre-load pump-up, into that system...unlike L-jet...which must have air flowing past the flap in order for the fuel pump to start up and pressurize the system.
You need to check your fuel pressure both at idle with vacuum line connected and without. Also, when you rev it...if it drops more than 2 psi...you have a suspect pump (most likely)...or a suspect regulator ...or both. The regulator should maintain 15-18 psi for at least 30 minutes after shutting down...or its defective.
For the CHT...I recommend sending $2.75 at Freyes electronics...or $8 at radio shack and getting a 0-1000 ohm adjustble cermet resistor to plug in line. Give it about an extra 100 ohms to start with. it will run beter in all modes...and not un so lean in hot weather...and have less hot starting problems.

One of the other great causes of hot starting problems...is running rich. Check all of the injectors for leaks. If you have a single vacuum leak anywhere in the engine....it will run rich. "0" vacuum leaks are allowed.
It causes the fuel pressure regulator to run higher pressure. Also, leaks makes the metering unit flap sluggish. Than can make the lean condition listed above worse.
This is not an insult or a jab...please don't take it that way....but if you need to take your car/van to someone to work on the injection...then you have vacuum leaks...trust me....you don't know enough about where to look for them. there are quite a few place to look that are not obvious. As me and I will list them. The best way to check for vacuum leaks...is to take each part loose, chec the flexibility of the rubber part...or replace it. All hoses...period...must be clamped. Once you have gone through teh whole engine, write down the date in a log book..and replace a little bit of everything over a 3 year period (its cheap and easy that way)...and you will never ever have the problem again. Fuel lines must ALL be replaced every two years.
Also, make sure that your auxiliary air regulator does not re-open until ambient temps drop below 100F after its has been heated up, closed and then shut down. All but the original d-jet auxiliary air regs are easily adjustable.
Almost all stock systems have weak ignition. This makes that problem worse. Even the later vanagons wit electronic..though greatly improved had a weak train of ignition. Use a better coil...use teh best wires you can get. Since they have resistor tips..get rid of the resistor plugs. Clean the carbon from teh cap and rotor at each oil change. It makes a difference.

Yeah a carb has one wire ...but is actually more complex than FI...and less dependable...and has sloppier/slower throttle response...less HP and less torque....gets less gas milage...AND you have to synch the carbs. I have a carb synch tool...I use it as a wheel chock :lol: . Oh...if you have solid lifters..adjust your valves...and check them hot to make sure they are symmetrical. This makes a huge difference on injected vehicles. Ray
You are talking about sensors and regulators and the CHT like I know what any of that stuff is or what it does. I haven't a clue. I understand setting valves, compression and vacuum leaks. I used to have a flat head Ford V-8 with eight one barrel carbs on it.

My problem isn't hot start, it is cold start. The weather is cold it will not start. The weather is warm it starts and runs. Compression and valves are all good. New fuel pump ($218) and filter.

I know you are going to a lot of trouble but it really doesn't help my problem. Thanks anyway. "G"
R2.0
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Post by R2.0 »

Capn Skully wrote:
I know you are going to a lot of trouble but it really doesn't help my problem. Thanks anyway. "G"
Well, it sounds like you've made up your mind, and to me, hey, that's OK. If you are set on carbs, I think Mr. Raby's advise is best, unless you want to hunt around Ebay and thesamba.com for used ones.

Also, don't forget the distributors in the conversion. I don't think either of the distributors in either of the vehicles you have are suitable for carbs. I have only heard good things about the SVDA at aircooled.net.

Now for the final question: Can I have all of your old FI stuff after your conversion? I'm going the other direction, and I'm not in a real big hurry. E-mail me or PM if you are interested.
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dstar
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Post by dstar »

Unscrew the cold start valve, right up front of the plenum, then plug it BACK in!

Have someone try to start the engine.

IF fuel doesn't come out, check for voltage, if you have voltage, replace the valve.

VW's FI is SIMPLER than carbs...

(Yea, I KNOW there isn't a real world called simpler, but I like it....)

Don
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Piledriver
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Post by Piledriver »

There is also one sensor on many VW systems ---a switch, actually-- cold start switch. It runs that injector, it's not supposed to come on above ~45 F.

The switch and injector are roughly the equivalent of a Carbs choke...

No one EVER has issues with the chokes on carbs, right?
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
Capn Skully
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Post by Capn Skully »

Piledriver wrote:There is also one sensor on many VW systems ---a switch, actually-- cold start switch. It runs that injector, it's not supposed to come on above ~45 F.

The switch and injector are roughly the equivalent of a Carbs choke...

No one EVER has issues with the chokes on carbs, right?
If you look down the throat of a carb the choke is there... it is either open or closed, if it doesn't work you change the actuator that may be electric , vacuum or manually operated. Where is the magic switch? Attached to the CHT? In the manifold? Under the dashboard? What is a CHT anyway?

I have a complete FI system for a beetle, it is in a box, 2 ft high, 10 inches deep and 18" wide. I can hold a carb in my hand, all of it, the whole thing in one neat little package. I can hold a whole four barrel carb in one hand. I am still not sold on EFI.
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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood »

Capn skully....the hot start answer was in refernce to what Piledriver posted.....but... Yes...they are caused largely by the same problems...and I gave you all the answers you need to check the correct parts...in that post and the two after it. Since this sytem is virtually unknown to you....as it would also be to me....by that I mean ...ie: you really don't know the actual condition of the parts of your system. There are few wires and even fewer sensors. There are half the parts in your FI system than there are in a twin carb system. You must do the diagnostics on either system. Since its unknown to you...and me...I would just go through the whole system....carbs or FI...to take stock...and point out the weak parts.
Your fuel injection system is basically 3 systems in one....all seperate...but interacting with each other at specific points. Treat them all seperately and its dirt simple. Thats AIR SYSTEM...from the air cleaner to the heads...and this includes making sure the block is sealed..no PCV leaks. Clamp evry vacuum line and hose...replave the injector seals (every 3 years $1.25) replace the runner boots ($19.95) replace the TB o-ring $3....just do it!!! they are old! We already talked about the auxiliary air regulator.
FUEL SYSTEM...this is from the pump to the injectors. There are only two pressure checks to make, 1 volume check (you must do both of those checks with carbs too so get on with it!) 4 resistance checks...one on each injector. Get a new fuel filter. Check the opening point of your thermo-time switch.
CONTROL SYSTEM.....check resistance on TPS,CHT and AFM, and the resistor pack if yours has one...clean all connectors.

All of this is done with a standad $18 digital VOM, a decent pressure gauge....and about 2 hours tops. :) We would be happy to walk you through it...but no one is going to point to an exact problem for you...either with FI or carbs. You need to do the diagnostics. By the way..the ignition and the advance is the "fourth" system. This alone will cause cold starting problems and have nothing to do with either FI or carbs. Let us know! 8) Ray
CLH
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Post by CLH »

Hey Ray, what's a good source for the runner boots, I'd like to replace mine while I'm noodlin' around. Thanks, Cliff
R2.0
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Post by R2.0 »

raygreenwood wrote:We would be happy to walk you through it...but no one is going to point to an exact problem for you...either with FI or carbs. You need to do the diagnostics. By the way..the ignition and the advance is the "fourth" system. This alone will cause cold starting problems and have nothing to do with either FI or carbs. Let us know! 8) Ray
In defense of Capt. Skully, he is not trying to fix the system - he has already made up his mind to switch to carbs, whether we think its a good idea or not. I'd just like to make sure the FI system components don't go to waste - I know I can use them.
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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood »

Otay...just trying to save someone the trouble. I have $10...says he will be back in a year looking for less maintenance, better fuel milage and more HP....and will be one of the jillion posts we see every year on the FI forum labled....."how do I convert back to FI from carbs :cry: what parts do I need"? But...I do truely respect the individuality of all...its about VW's! Of course....I happen to believe the FI models are superior and righteous with respect to their carburetted heathen cousins.....but thats my opinion...and like my as*hole...its only useful to me.....carry on! 8) Ray
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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood »

CLH...I used to get mine from Rocky moutain motorworks. They are now mid-america motorworrks...just use that as a keyt word. They usually have them and West coast metric has them. But...I have also used...red high pressure hose of 1" and 1/16" diameter available at any hose supply. Depending on where you are...they can also be had at Kerr Automotive in Oklahoma city. I would bet that jogn at aircooled. net has them. Be sure...you get some 50mm fuel injection syle clamps for them. It makes all of the difference in the world.
Heres what I do....clean all paint off underneath where the boots go on the runner. Get a very very thin smear of permatex copper onto the tube ends to use as first an installation lube...and hwne its dry a sealant. Put the boots on and pull them back from the edge of the runner. Install the center manifold/plenum first. Install both runners. Then slide the boots all the way inward until they seat on the plenum. While pushing inward on the boot to create sealing pressure against the plenum...tighten the clamp. They will never leak....and they look great with the black painted clamps. These clamps can be found on many watercooled cars on fuel injection plenums and some water hoses. Do Not use serrated hose clamps. They destroy the boots outer covering instantly. Ray
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dstar
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Post by dstar »

raygreenwood wrote:........I happen to believe the FI models are superior
and righteous with respect to their carburetted heathen cousins......... 8) Ray
Image

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Thanks Ray!

Don
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Piledriver
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Post by Piledriver »

Who has Wasser manifolds for carbs?

FAT used to do them IIRC, but their website is useless..

I wish him the best of luck, and suggest that he hang onto his efi gear... for awhile.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood »

I did like the analysis regarding the box sizes though. Its interesting...the benefits and performance of the FI versus carbs...just about equate to the volumetric sizes in the post. The FI delivers the "big box" full of performance, longevity and fuel milage...while the carb....and all its performance.... will just fit in your hand. That about sums it up.
Oddly enough...the maintenance graph...is just opposite. The carb and twin darb systems especially...have a big fat box of maintenance...compared to the little box of FI maintenance. :D I like this new math! Ray
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flybayb
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Post by flybayb »

we have the same vanagon, we have same trouble, high 5 bro'

FI @ vanagons are f-easy. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand them. Simplicity is what made them run forever.


Ok, here is a troubleshooting chart for beginners. All what you need is an ohm-meter and a helper:

Unplug the the BIG plug (Terminal) from your ECU.

...........................[1] ___________[18]
****(cable******
...........................[19] ________[35]


Ohmmeter to Terminal:
1 + Ground

Sec:
Disconnect white injection wire at coil, hook wire to ground
0 Ohms

Checks:
Wire to #1 terminal on coil

3 + 18
press gas pedal fully down
0 Ohms
Full throttle enrichment circuit thru throttle switch

5 + ground
0 Ohms
Ground circuit

6 + 9
200 - 400 Ohms
Air sensor circuit

6 + 8
130 - 260 Ohms
Air circuit

8 + 9
70 - 140 Ohms
Air Sensor circuit

6 + 7
40 - 300 Ohms
Air Sensor Circuit

7 + 8
100 - 500 Ohms
Air Sensor circuit

6 + 27
Max. 2800 Ohms @ 68F
Air Sensor cicuit

13 + ground
2100 - 2900 Ohms @ 68F
270 - 390 Ohms @ 176F
Head sensor

14 + 10
7 - 9 Ohms
Injector wire and resistor

15 + 10
7 - 9 Ohms
Injector wire and resistor

32 + 10
7 - 9 Ohms
Injector wire and resistor

33 + 10
7 - 9 Ohms
Injector wire and resistor

16 + ground
0 Ohms
Ground Circuit

17 + ground
0 Ohms
Ground circuit

34 (@ control unit) and 37 ( @ double relay)
~ 30 Ohms
Aux Air reg and wires

4 + ground
min. 9.5 Volts @ cranking
0 volts @ all other times
Signal from starter

10 + ground
12 volts @ key 'ON'
0 volts @ key 'off'
Voltage supply @ computer

20 + ground (Cali mod uses 28 + ground)
12 volts @ key 'ON' and sensor flap open (or bridge terminal 36 to terminal 39 of air sensor plug)
pump circuit


Voila, I don't think it goes any easier. The whole troubleshooting can be done with an OHMMETER/VOLTMETER!!

Go, have fun....

Happy Westy :arrow:
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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood »

Thats a true chart right there! I tell people that all the time. These system (electrically) can be checked in 20-30 minutes with an $18 VOM. Just don't forget to get your vacuum system and fuel system completely sorted out FIRST...or even the most correct wiring, ohm readings will not solve the problems. It is easy....and much simpler and more dependable than carbs. Ray
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