911 heads

roo · Post by **roo** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:03 pm

This seems like a pretty exotic swap. I was checking out Russ Fellows car at http://www.centralvwaudi.com/Russ_Fellows.htm and wondering just how much work is necessary to make it all work. from what i understand each head needs to be redrilled for different stud spacing wich isn't all that bad but what all is involved in making the cams ect work. how much would a project like this cost. i'm sure its more than i want to spend but its interesting non-the-less.

Rescue912 · Post by **Rescue912** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:52 pm

I saw that a while back and sent an email asking if that was a typo or if they actually were 911 heads. Interested because I have several grenaded 911's that only have 4 or so heads left

Never did get a response and I haven't pursued it. The 911 has roughly the same intake and exhaust placement but completely different bolt patterns/flanges.

Have to fab some custom manifolds and exhaust. Not to mention the geometry of the valve train being completely different having been designed for multiple cams. Major mojo going on to get that to happen with one cam. Love to see one though ...

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:11 pm

You better have a Mill, a Lathe and alot of time.....Those are 911 heads.

Frallan · Post by **Frallan** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:01 am

Hi guys,

somebody help me with an adress and I will send you several pictures on buildup on an engine that can be posted.
That is an engine with 911 heads.
Dragrace with carbs and then run on the streets with turbo.
Wally, you out there?

Shad Laws · Post by **Shad Laws** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:39 am

Hello-

I've often considered taking a T1 engine and putting modified 2.7L 911 parts on them...

-911 2.7L engine specs:
Bore spacing: 118mm
Stud pattern: 80mm x 80mm
Stud bolt circle diameter: 113.13mm
Cylinder bore: 90mm (or overbored to 92mm a la "2.8L" upgrade)
Cylinder case spigot diameter: 97mm
Cylinder head spigot diameter: 107mm
Cylinder deck-to-deck height: way too small (needs big spacer)

-VW Type 1 specs with 94mm cylinders:
Bore spacing: 112mm
Stud pattern: 81mm x 76mm
Stud bolt circle diameter: 111.07mm
Cylinder bore: 94mm
Cylinder case spigot diameter: 98.25mm
Cylinder head spigot diameter: 101.5mm

So, this makes the part of bolting up cylinders, pistons, cylinder head studs (use aftermarket 911... not original 2.7), and heads pretty easy. The hard part, however, is getting the cams and camboxes to work!

Ported 2.7L heads aren't a terrible fortune... on par with fancy VW heads. Coupled with a big stroke and some high rpms, they should make ~250-275hp in N/A form.

Also note that due to the problem with deck height AND the problem with a huge dissimilarity in head spigot diameter, head spigot depth, and the head sealing ring, this does not make it possible to bolt up 2.7 cylinders to regular VW heads without modifying absolutely... not worth the cost by the end of the job unless you have 911 heads to go with it.

Take care,

Wesayso · Post by **Wesayso** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:05 am

Frallan wrote:Hi guys,

somebody help me with an adress and I will send you several pictures on buildup on an engine that can be posted.
That is an engine with 911 heads.
Dragrace with carbs and then run on the streets with turbo.
Wally, you out there?

You know were to find me right? I'll put em up for you

Rescue912 · Post by **Rescue912** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:19 am

Yeah, what Shad said

Love to see photos of the buildup - in gory detail if possible.

Wesayso · Post by **Wesayso** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:12 am

Okay, here we go: The pictures from Frallan

Be warned, lot's of pictures ahead:

Frallan · Post by **Frallan** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:17 am

OK,

Pictures sent and I am sure they will be up in short time.
Engine is T1 built 1977. Modified in several steps since then. Details are:
GB 78 welded CW crank, wedgemated.
Bugpack 5.7" rods with CARR bolts.
Porsche 90 mm domed pistons. Offset valve reliefs with few millimeters to accomodate the slightly offset heads over cylinders.
90 mm Mahle Oettinger Nicasil cylinders.
40/46 Porsche valves. Exhaust is sodium filled.
GB springs and Crower titanium retainers.
Mixed usage of rockers from high revs cam and titanium race rockers using shimtype lash caps for clearance adjustment to mild turbo cam and original cast rockers with swivel feet.
Cams manufactured new and always copy of Porsche profiles.
Cam drive housing & intakes, own made from billet.
Other camdrive components mainly from VW diesel watercooled.

When used with turbo a Motec injection was used and TWM 55mm throttles and twin injector per cylinder.

In it's "turbo mode" the case has been machined on either side for 12 mm thick steel plates and high tensile studs going right through the block. Resulting in a VERY stiff case. Case halves machined after installing the plates and then the mains machined to stock dimension.
Oil squirters installed for piston cooling.
Extra oillines are for cam oilsquirters and cam oiling.
in turbo mode the car ran with a 090 autotrans.
What else? Ask and I can fill in.
I have several pictures of other Swedish engines performing really well with 911 heads. I will try to post these too, at a later stage.

Rescue912 · Post by **Rescue912** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:42 am

Whoa, so did you just shortened the cam galleys off of a 2.7 and scabbed your own tensioners together? Piece of work, that is for sure ...

kit · Post by **kit** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:12 am

Some details of Russ's engine when last seen...Nov 2001
Bore 105
stroke 71
heads I think were Carrera 4...stoke stud hole pluged heads built up with weld and redrilled to T4 pattern.
Pistons Porche 944.
cams specials ground by Piper in UK
Turbo from Saab, Mechanical injection(Cis) +additional injectors.
Russ did all his own welding...fully coded. he makes good exhausts for some people.
Cam towers welded and redrilled to sort out bore spacing.
cam drive pulleys from VW Polo.
Hope this helps
kit

Bobtail · Post by **Bobtail** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:45 am

Just a few points Russ is running 104mm Porsche 944 pistons, hence very low compression.
The cams are now stock 911 with the centre 2 lobes removed and the cam pinned back together.
Motec is to be installed over the winter.

roo · Post by **roo** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:05 am

GREAT info guys. the heads themselves don't seem like a huge problem but what exactly is invovled to get the cam boxes ect. to work.

Bobtail · Post by **Bobtail** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:41 am

roo wrote:GREAT info guys. the heads themselves don't seem like a huge problem but what exactly is invovled to get the cam boxes ect. to work.

Well once you've got the barrel spacing sorted on the heads the camboxes are dowelled so you transfer the measurement from the heads to the cambox.

Cam timing is a bit tricky to work out using 911 cams.
youneed to get them to fire 1432.
I'm sure Shad can tell us how to work it out, I know I can't

(not my forte)
Basicall they have the middle lobes cut out and thrown away, the two remaining parts are rotated 180degree's I think! and then pinned together.

roo · Post by **roo** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:45 am

Has anyone considered the 964 cylinders. they're 100mm nickies and wally is working on adapting them to type 4/type 5 use. i have spoke with him about it and its still in the works but maybe a possibility. don't know if it'd be easier to use eccentric bolts and change the pattern on the case like the type 5 guys are doing or weld an redrill the stud pattern on the head itself. with those jugs could make the head swap easier. something to consider anyways.