JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

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Shad Laws
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Shad Laws » Tue May 14, 2002 1:11 am

Hello-

So this must be a direct fire(or waste spark) setup then, will not work with a dizzy?

Nope, the opposite. This setup only works with one coil systems. Multiple coil systems will be handled by their new model they're finishing up.

How else could it dial back a cylinders timing seperatly?

The computer has up to eight leads going into it, but five only need to be used for most applications (the other ones are for extra options). They are +12V, GND, the Knock Sensor (which is grounded to the engine case), an IN, and an OUT. From the points/Pertronix/Compufire/computer/etc. comes a "points-like" signal to trigger the spark. Run this to the IN. Then, run the OUT to the coil/MSD/CDI/etc. The computer is hardcoded to know you have a 4-cylinder engine (you can order one with a different config if you like). So, it sees every single ignition pulse, and can count quite easily. It knows that every fourth pulse belongs to the same cylinder...

Take care,

------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

JohnConnolly
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by JohnConnolly » Tue May 14, 2002 1:18 am

Since the safeguard is seeing every ignition trigger that occurs (it's between the trigger source (points, compufire, etc) and the next item inline (coil or CDI), and it's ALSO connected to the knock sensor, it "knows" which signal caused the knock sensor to trigger (if it does), and the next time around, it retards the spark for THAT cylinder.

it flat out works, and is one of the best methods to achieve a HP/ET gain on a high end engine, and is CHEAP for the return on your $.

Lastly, it has 4 built in adjustable rev limits which you set, 5K, 6K, 7K, or 8K, this is one more reason to use it!

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

[This message has been edited by JohnConnolly (edited 05-13-2002).]

MASSIVE TYPE IV
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Tue May 14, 2002 10:51 am

It has boost retard built in.....

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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
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CHA914
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by CHA914 » Tue May 14, 2002 11:44 am

I found there web site:
http://www.safeguard.20m.com/

looks pretty sweet...

Steve Arndt
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Steve Arndt » Tue May 14, 2002 2:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wilson:
<B>Hey - where can one find more information on this safeguard> Who is the company making it?

thanks - Wilson</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=J%26S+safeguard

john@stafford.net
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by john@stafford.net » Tue May 14, 2002 10:39 pm

Safeguard's site opens with a mention of multiple-coil setups. Multiple coils serve what purpose, exactly? Do they allow more time for coil saturation, thus hotter spark?

Shad Laws
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Shad Laws » Tue May 14, 2002 10:42 pm

Hello-

Safeguard's site opens with a mention of multiple-coil setups. Multiple coils serve what purpose, exactly? Do they allow more time for coil saturation, thus hotter spark?

The main reason for using coil packs is to have a truly distributorless ignition system. You can't have one coil and no distributor. You can have just two on a four cylinder if you run "wasted spark" (i.e. the #1 and #3 plugs fire simultaneously, wasting one spark). You need a pack of four for a truly sequential system.

Take care,

------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

JohnConnolly
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by JohnConnolly » Tue May 14, 2002 11:36 pm

If you want, we can answer any of your questions regarding the Safeguard SPECIFICALLY addressing aircooled VW applications. There are a couple points about the use of this device in our applications that the J & S folks aren't even aware of (we have been pushing this device to the aircooled VW community), but we do talk to them every week or so.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

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danielzink
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by danielzink » Tue May 14, 2002 11:42 pm

This thing sounds neat.
I like the idea......Now that the CB FI is up and running...I wonder how it'd all "mesh" together as the MSD ignition and dist. is wired in with the FI.....

Have to do more research...

Dan

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danielzink
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by danielzink » Tue May 14, 2002 11:48 pm

also........being as the car is up and running...I'd hate to have to pull the motor again to drill and tap the bell housing...that'd be a nightmare....any "quick install" suggestions for people that are already up and running and would just like to retro-fit ?

Thanks, Dan

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Joe Goldthwaite
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Joe Goldthwaite » Wed May 15, 2002 12:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by john@stafford.net:
Multiple coils serve what purpose, exactly?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a couple of "problems" with a single coil. First, the spark has to jump over two gaps - the gap at the plug AND the gap in the distributor. Second, if you start increasing the voltage, there can be a tendency for the electricity in the distributor to jump across to other wires. That's why on high voltage ignitions, you need a bigger distributor cap (and distributor to match), it puts more distance between the ignition wire posts. You also have more time to charge the coils in high rpm situations. With multiple coils, you can run a far more powerful spark than you can with a single coil and distributor. Additionally, you can do it all electronically and get very precise timing.

That said, I don't think it will give you anything in a VW engine. First, they don't run at extreem RPMS. Second, after you get a strong enough spark to reliably ignite the mixture, more spark gets you nothing. You can get a good enough spark from the stock distributor. Third, I think the safeguard eliminates the precise timing requirement. You're money is better spent elsewhere.

I have the Scorpion CDI ignition from aircooled.net. It looks like I'm getting a little better gas milage out of it (I'm still testing) so you can get some benfit from a stronger than stock ignition system and its still going through the 009. Car Craft magazine had a shootout between various low cost CDI ignition setups and found virtualy NO difference between them on the dynamo. If you want a big benfit from ignition system, you need to optimize the timing - a.k.a. the SafeGuard.

[This message has been edited by Joe Goldthwaite (edited 05-14-2002).]

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danielzink
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by danielzink » Wed May 15, 2002 8:20 pm

I'm bumping this back to the top - I'd like Shad and Jake's views on the last comment made.
Very interesting reading......

Dan

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[This message has been edited by my65notch@aol.com (edited 05-15-2002).]

JohnConnolly
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by JohnConnolly » Wed May 15, 2002 8:38 pm

Dan,

this last comment is irrelevant to the Safeguard, it's a comment on CDIs and Batch Fire ignitions, it has nothing to do with the Safeguard and/or the Safeguard's functions or operation. It "should" be in a separate topic.

Spark quality is a totally different topic then spark timing WRT the engine.

BTW, the gap in the various components doesn't matter, it's only the largest (highest resistance) gap that matters, once the spark can jump that one, the other ones are non-existent to the spark voltage. Batchfire ignitions (multiple coils) that eliminate the dizzy also eliminate a huge source of spark problems, including crossfire in the cap or closely run plug wires.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

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danielzink
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by danielzink » Wed May 15, 2002 8:56 pm

Thanks John - I appreciate the clarification.
When you state it like that - and I go back and re-read the post <carefully> it makes sense that he wasn't referring to the J&S.
That being said - with regards to other comments in different forums here - setting cromo pushrods to zero -or- near zero lash might also help quieting down the motor for tuning purposes re: the J&S ? or isn't it that much of a problem ?
Also - John - what about an already assembled running motor ? What would it take to retro fit ?
I was daydreaming at work today......maybe pull the alternator stand off and the alternator and fan (I'm running a DTM) - think that'd give enough clearance to get at the bellhousing to drill and tap for the sensor ?

Dan

Shad Laws
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Shad Laws » Wed May 15, 2002 8:59 pm

Hello-

<B>I'm bumping this back to the top - I'd like Shad and Jake's views on the last comment made.
Very interesting reading......</B>

John said it all. Yes, killing the distributor helps. But no, on your normally aspirated, relatively low rpm application, you'll be hard pressed to actually use that help :-).

Wiring the safeguard into your existing ignition system is a snap. Maybe even only half a snap. It's REALLY easy, especially when compared to wiring up your EFI.

As for the "quick fix" thing to avoid tapping the bellhousing, don't worry about it. Get a 2"-3" piece of 1/4" steel bar stock. Drill an 8mm hole in one end and tap the other for 3/8"x16. Then, put the knock sensor in the threads and bolt the short little bracket to the forward-most bolt atop the case right on the bellhousing. Worked for me, and it works for Jake. Heck, he's even using the exact same little bracket I originally fabbed up for my engine :-).

Take care,

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Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

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