Tight 2056 when at temp

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Keith Park
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Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Keith Park » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:55 pm

Well I started up the 2056 that I built from a Raby kit (Camper special) a while back, was really careful to make sure the bearing
clearances were right, case was alignbored and checked, cylinders and keith Black pistons were from the previous build and have about 1000 miles on them, .003 end play.
Engine started and ran well, but when at temp it gets really tight to the point that re-starting it it will bearly crank fast enough to start... clueless as to what could possibly be wrong this time, haven't had this problem before. could it be end play? that's the only thing that might be tighter than I measured but Ive set this engine and T3 engines up before without issue.

Should I drive and see if it loosens up? I have put about 25 miles on it so far with no improvement. spins fine when cold, or even after sitting 10 minutes.

Thanks,

KEith

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Clatter
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Clatter » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:59 pm

Get it hot enough to get tight,
And then immediately check the end play...
What's that Noise??

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Keith Park
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Keith Park » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:16 pm

I checked the end play, it was still at .003, I set it up to .005, engine is back in and same problem, its tight when fully up to temp, still cranks but slowly
and is stiff when turning over by hand.

Runs well, no expensive sounds, put about another 15 miles on it and little if any improvement. It quickly free's up after its been off just a few minutes.

This motor is a 2056 and was run for about 1000 miles with no stiffness problems before I pulled it apart for low oil pressure issues and cam followers that were not rotating in the bores properly.

for this build Its got a new cam and lifters, checked the bore, bearing fit etc, no problems and the cylinder set has about 1000 miles on it, I never even pulled the pistons out of the cylinders when I pulled it apart, KB pistons, so they *should* be broken in and OK, they were fine in the last build. Same crank and bearings and case, no problems before.

Its still got the Joe Gibbs break in oil in it with about 40 miles on the motor
since I put it back in the car. Just not sure where to go, I have a feeling I could pull it apart now and find nothing as its smooth as silk when cold.

Thoughts?

twodollardoug
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by twodollardoug » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:29 pm

Wow that sucks. And disheartening. Have you ruled out everything else? The throw out bearing hanging up? Running without the fan belt?

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:59 pm

Not a type 4 person but have built not a lot but more like a few engines over the years. Watching what they are now doing on engine build shows, things are being done quite differently now days.

Did you check the clearances of the pistons to the bores and set the ring gaps. Remember, there are everyday driving gaps and then there are racing gaps. Different materials expand and contract at different rates too. I've seen what sounds like this problem with different alloy pistons or thin wall bores.

Have you checked to see what it takes to rotate the crank and piston assy both hot an cold? The same with the cam with the lifters in the bores and valves set to clearances.

Also the ignition can cause similar problems.

While I am sure you did all of these a just-in-case interjection.

Lee

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Clatter
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Clatter » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:52 am

There could be simply an issue of the starter?

Once the top end gets hot and everything expands to size,
There should be more compression, so harder to turn..

Maybe the starter is just struggling,
And the issue only shows up at temp..

Maybe get a turning torque on the big fan bolt, both cold and hot, to compare?

Man, you gotta hate an issue like this..
What's that Noise??

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

Keith Park
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Keith Park » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:24 pm

Its not the starter, or not entirely, as turning it by hand hot is much more stiff that cold. I don't feel that play in the cam/crank gear when hot so that rules out the valve train, if that were the only tight thing the crank would be free in that slop zone in the gears. I did try backing off the timing, in case it was firing back... no change. The last build I put KB pistons in it that Jake Raby recommended, and I did go thru all the end gaps and such to make sure everything fit properly as I had problems with the Chinese AA's that came with the kit in the first build, the cylinders were out of round, a problem Jake later found was prevalent in the Chinese crap. These cylinders and pistons were not pulled apart from the last build, they were removed with the pistons in them, and were not a problem before... things CAN happen but I think its doubtful as I have run them and broken them in before.

I AM still using breakin oil for the new Cam, anyone ever have any problems like this with that?

Keith

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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:26 pm

I don't know much about the newer oils used now days especially the "break-in oils" but I would think that damage, if any, would occur pretty fast. Also the need for a certain additive (Zinc) for use with solid lifter engines now days because the standards for it is low or non-existent in oils now days so you may need the additive to be added.

Out of round is one of the problems I was referring to but so is metal expansion and contraction. The specs for here in the States is a lot different than specs (when they are there) in other countries. There has been theft of data by some countries but whether it is being used or not is another question. You often see the low failure rate in off-shore fasteners a lot. I worked with Fed spec stuff a lot and there was some comparison of off-shore equivalents ( :roll: snort) and they were not really that close. There is a lot more about things I can't talk about too.

The thing on timing had to do with advance and retard and the control there of.

Also, what distributor are you using? For example the 009 has several versions from VW alone with some versions not being as good as others. I have heard complaints of stuff bought from some US companies too but I don't know where their stuff comes from.

Lee

For what it is worth: my opinion is worth what you paid for it. :wink:

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Bobby74
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Bobby74 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:30 am

When you replaced the cam, etc. you said, "These cylinders and pistons were not pulled apart from the last build, they were removed with the pistons in them, and were not a problem before."

Did you knock the pin out of the pistons with them hanging in the cylinders? Were the pins a slip fit or require force?
Its possible they were cocked in the bore and damaged a ring, skirt, etc...

Did the rods feel normal and not bind or hang up tighter while rotating the rod on the crank?
What kind of oil pump are you running?

Other than a bearing tightening up, it would have to be something that experiences a lot of heat and is probably dissimilar materials. Pistons to cylinders, valves to guides, etc.

If the crank feels tight when using a wrench while hot, I would suspect bottom end.
If the crank feels 'normal' but it feels like something is dragging or you hear a type of squeak, I would suspect top end.

That's a bummer, but keep at it. Its a hard problem to diagnose without being able to feel the engine in person.

Keith Park
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Keith Park » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:37 pm

piston pins were pulled, they slip right out. Rods got new bearing shells and were plastiguaged, mains were checked as well.

pump is a 30mm shadek T1, is there anything else available for a T4?

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petew
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by petew » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:41 pm

I suppose you haven't driven it enough to see if it's getting hot?
Also, have you done a compression test, just see if there's anything weird going on with any of the cylinders/rings?

Keith Park
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by Keith Park » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:37 pm

iv got it up to temp, nothing unusual heating wise, no compression test but I did dump the break in oil and
did NOT find anything bad in the sump or oil filter, so nothing appears to be a drastic problem. Ill have to
see how It goes with the conventional oil in it.

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doc
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by doc » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:42 am

I read above but I suspect endplay. Measure, measure, measure again. And don't suppose you missed the little pin that locates the thrust bearing Unlikely given description. Just some thoughts.

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dstar5000
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by dstar5000 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:44 am

Set endplay at .007.... and see !
Don
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raygreenwood
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Re: Tight 2056 when at temp

Post by raygreenwood » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:24 pm

This sounds like tight piston to cylinder clearances Keith. If these are the hyper eutectic pistons....If I am not mistaken...those require tighter piston to cylinder gaps because they expand less. Its also not uncommon reading here and there for people to get them a little too tight. pretty much you almost need to have your undersized cylinder honed to fit the KB pistons.

Also...re-set your end play back to .003" max. Ray

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