DTM Fan Fitment Issue

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saggs
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DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by saggs » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:56 pm

I'm assembling a used full DTM cooling kit on my 1911 T4 block. The fiberglass shroud fits over the cylinders and all very well but the generator stand and the fan backing plate are not at the same plane or angle as the shroud face where the 4 screws hold the fan to the shroud. Basically the shroud looks to be warped in that mounting area but no stress is coming from the placement over the motor. Also I need to find an alternator pulley that sets the belt back to towards the front of the car as far as possible. need a lot of offset towards the fan so to move the belt in better alignment with the crank puller. Anyone had fitment issues with this setup?
Thanks,
George

NextGen
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by NextGen » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:08 pm

Hi Saggs,
In my manual I explained how to line up the Gen/Alt pulley by using a hand made adaptor but NATE told me a simpler way.
You knock out the center of the Gen pulley and then put the front half on the back and the back half on the front.
Not sure if that will work in your case. I was in shock how it worked for me and I was using stock parts. If if gets better then you can figure it out
by using some shims????
Joe Cali
The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
http://www.nextgen-usa.com
Next Generation-U.S.A.

Email: nextgenusa@optonline.net
or
joe.nextgenusa@gmail.com

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sideshow
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by sideshow » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:17 pm

I call that Joe'O'clock and I agree it looks like ass...he didn't like Berg shroud mounted linkage and tried to eliminate the option of its usage. One can fix the clocking, I did by cutting a cheap shroud apart just for the clocking ring (I use the old NLA DTM center pull linkage while i like the Berg never tried to retrofit that style).

What lower pulley are you using? The lower DTM pulley and billet upper (giant square shim) seem to be a trouble free combination.
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

NextGen
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by NextGen » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:45 am

Never had problems with the lower pulley, even before anyone sold an after market lower T-4 Upright Conversion Pulley I simply took the T-4 hub and put it on a T-1 pulley. My manual shows it. The only issue is some cases have to be ground in some places to prevent the belt from hitting.
Joe Cali
The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
http://www.nextgen-usa.com
Next Generation-U.S.A.

Email: nextgenusa@optonline.net
or
joe.nextgenusa@gmail.com

saggs
Posts: 211
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Location: Central Vermont

Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by saggs » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:19 am

The trouble is not with a Cali setup but the DTM unit. The fiberglass shroud itself is almost warped and out of square where the blower wheel backing plate mounts. I would need a crescent shaped shim about a 1/4" thick to make the alternator shaft and crank shaft run parallel.

NextGen
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by NextGen » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:04 pm

Personally the DTM which was created by the Late Joe Oregon Performance then later improved by Jake Raby is a amazing piece of work., Considering it targets the center of each pair of cylinders on both sides and uses the remaining air to go to the removable oil cooler.
That said, fiberglass is not steel and have heard of several cracking and warping as you mentioned.

I have one and did have a hard time mounting an after market billet alum. Gen Mounting plate. It has never been mounted on a engine but I do worry with the vibrations a running engine can produce if that added stress can cause a crack. Keep in mind mine was one of the first kits Joe made not a later Jake Raby improved piece.
Joe Cali
The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
http://www.nextgen-usa.com
Next Generation-U.S.A.

Email: nextgenusa@optonline.net
or
joe.nextgenusa@gmail.com

saggs
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Central Vermont

Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by saggs » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:02 pm

That's exactly the trouble with mine. This one is stamped number 027 so it must be an early unit. I'm gonna concentrate on fitting the Cali conversion I used earlier on my 1700. Do you think a Kafer brace on the tranny horns to the shock mounts will help with engine torque in lieu of a rear motor mount in my oval? Is this needed with a 75-80hp motor?

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sideshow
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by sideshow » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:38 pm

I have only used the cast aluminum backing plate all though the sheet metal one should work just fine. If you have some warpage this maybe a better fit.
CB sells it as;
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2177.htm
Image
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

NextGen
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by NextGen » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:00 pm

Saggs, I do have a tranny brace on mine. It was recommended by the late Joe of Oregon performance after I built my engine. I have put countless engines in bugs and notice the engine did not fit in correctly, it one or both of the horns were not parallel or one was higher then the other. How they get like that, well my dad and I figured bouncing over bad roads for years could be one reason.... but by taking a bar and just pry each horn into position was simple------ TOO FREAKING SIMPLE. So beside the extra torque, from my experience the tranny braces are a good idea.

SIDESHOW that is the backing plate I uses and had an issue fitting. Hey when you hand build a fan housing they cannot be all the same, temperature changes can create shrinkage or warpage. It may not be visible but when your are trying to fit a flat plate, you can easily see misalignment.
Joe Cali
The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
http://www.nextgen-usa.com
Next Generation-U.S.A.

Email: nextgenusa@optonline.net
or
joe.nextgenusa@gmail.com

wreck
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by wreck » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:07 pm

I've got a homemade kafer brace that bolts to the camber compensator /load bar body mounts . because the 30mm x30mm square tube sits further back than the shock mounts the uprights from the frame horns don't have a big angle on them . From what I've read the cheaper Kafer bars are a waste of time because of the flex in them . Mine has helped a fair bit but have also read a cheap traction bar supporting the back of the engine works better , I'm yet to try one because my exhaust gets in the way .
If you're not planning on drag racing or burnouts and just normal driving then the standard bug mounting system will be fine .
No matter where you go , there you are !

NextGen
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by NextGen » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:05 pm

I agree actually some guys pr should I say Mate, that did the Australian Outback 1000k race had Sharpbuilt fan housing and no rear engine support and were just fine.

Nice to have the tranny support, even though an upright conversion is only 25 lbs more then a 1600 T-1
Joe Cali
The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
http://www.nextgen-usa.com
Next Generation-U.S.A.

Email: nextgenusa@optonline.net
or
joe.nextgenusa@gmail.com

saggs
Posts: 211
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by saggs » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:06 pm

Good info, I think I'll try the aluminum backing plate, I like the looks of it. I'm planning to try one of the Vintage Speed T4 exhaust systems in my oval. It uses a stainless bug type muffler w/ large pea shooters and your choice of straight flanged headers or balanced length flanged headers. The cost for the balanced length header portion vs the standard unit is almost double at $650. Do you think it will matter much for that price increase? Below is a link to one or both of them. It may be the tuned header? I'm not tech savvy here :roll: Know anyone who has used these?
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Vintage-Sp ... -42ecj.htm

wreck
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by wreck » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:14 pm

The equal length headers in a merged system are worth a fair bit of horsepower , how much it affects a system dumping into a muffler I don't know but I really can't see the double price justification .
All depending on the look you are after , the first conversion I did in the late eighties was a 2 lt , just about all s/h parts , I used cut down heater boxes with one of these headers with a large muffler and resonator tucked up under the right rear guard .It was very quiet and hidden.

Ithttp://vwparts.aircooled.net/1972-74-Bus-1980-83-Vanagon-Type-4-Engine-Header-p/2086-10-2086-13.htmwas

That set up lasted for years with no Kafer brace or traction bar ,no Internet back then so I had no idea on how to get rid of the wheel hop . It was still good for a 15.5 quarter with 3.88 diff in a full weight 68 bug .( I really only had wheel hop at the drag strip)
No matter where you go , there you are !

NextGen
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Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by NextGen » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

These two photos are of my bluebird system I got from Justkempers in the UK. If you go to my website click on PHOTOS then Click on Additional phots you will see it is all Stainless the only problem was the main muffler turned blue then black in some areas from heat, snow and water. Painted only the muffler BBQ HOT PAINT BLACK. Tail pipes I left Shiny Stainless.

I also used stock Cut down heater box Pipes as headers. Low mellow, tough should, unless you step on it.

it has been over 30 years on the car. As long as you do not damage the system the muffler and headers will last forever. BTY I do not race jsut am happy to do 80 all day and keep up with modern cars at highway speed .

The car is my art and I got what I want. You can put a Ferrari next to my bug and it gets the attention.

Image


Image

Image

Image
Joe Cali
The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
http://www.nextgen-usa.com
Next Generation-U.S.A.

Email: nextgenusa@optonline.net
or
joe.nextgenusa@gmail.com

saggs
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Central Vermont

Re: DTM Fan Fitment Issue

Post by saggs » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:14 pm

Thanks for the feedback and pics. I like the twin wide spaced exh outlets on your bug. Sounds like I don't need to spend the extra $300 on the balanced tube exhausts. I just got my Cali fan put onto my rebuilt block this afternoon and have the carbs and linkage all done. Just need to fill the oil and get the ignition set up- it's still on the motor stand at this point and my bug is sitting in a barn a couple towns over on several miles of muddy dirt roads. I do need to search for the proper break in procedure for the new cam and top end before running it.

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