My first T4 build

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Tony Z
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Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

My first T4 build

Post by Tony Z » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:44 pm

Hey guys

I recently acquired an engine which at a guess, the previous owner gave up on trying to get it running properly.
Long story short, I have torn the engine apart and need to go about replacing a few parts and rebuilding it using mostly what I have already.

Since I am busy with a 1302S restoration, I thought this to be the perfect engine to go into it.
Blitz if you are reading, it wasnt originally bought for this car, but I changed my mind.

Anyway, I'll have a few questions for you guys before I start on the engine.

As for a history of me... I havent been very active on the STF over the last few years, but I still lurk here occasionally.
Ive got a swing axle bug with a 2332 with 86C cam and 48IDFs - approx 195hp on the flywheel.
I built a 74x85.5mm stroker 1700 T1 for my baywindow panel van which I sold on and replaced with a 2110 and 091 gearbox. I restored the bus and it was originally a T1, so I had to keep it T1.

The cars:
My 2332 street monster
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Here is the bus, after just completing a 1400 mile trip (so a bit dirty)
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Then the 1302 for which the T4 is bound
as bought
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Now in the process of getting all the items together including building my own disc brake conversion to VR6 discs, front and rear
The rims on the front are staying, the rears are only temp to get it rolling.
Image
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Tony Z
Posts: 1205
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Re: My first T4 build

Post by Tony Z » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:46 pm

The T4 engine is going to be an engine that I want to use and use properly. Anything from a bit of traffic light racing to cruising 1000miles to a show or event and then driving back.
What have I got?
A case that I cant use, which I'll be replacing along with a few other things that I am not going to use (38mm oil pump...).
78.4mm DPR welded crank, chevy journals
102mm JE pistons with a 16cc inverted dome - I'll cut this down a little to improve CR and squish
QSC Nikasil cylinders
LE180 heads
dual 40IDFs with 34mm venturies (will be replaced with 44IDFs when funds allow)
EMW H grind cam

OK, first set of questions:
Cooling.
I bought a CSP upright conversion kit about 10 years ago which I'll be putting together for this one.
Just thinking about the cooling ability of these kits with the T1 fan. I saw a post where the T4 fan pushes out about 33% more air at 4000rpm than a T1 fan.
I know the upright conversion has been done successfully many times over, but I am just wondering about the cooling while using a "stock T1" crank to fan pulley ratio. OK, its not pushing a bus, so its not producing as much heat. But is it really good in the long run?
I'll definitely be ceramic coating the valves and probably the piston tops too.
Does the fan deliver enough air to properly cool the engine during long runs?
Also, the crank pulley that came with the engine looks like it is a power pulley size - I am not home to measure it, but it definitely looks small. Is the CSP crank pulley smaller than the stock T1 pulley?

Clutch
What is the holding power (or Torque) of a stock 215mm flywheel and Pressure plate?
The engine came with a 200mm flywheel and a Kennedy stage 2 pressure plate. Being that I actually want to use the car, I wouldnt mind a lighter clutch pedal. I've got a NOS 215mm pressure plate and a used flywheel to match it. Will it hold this engine combo?

wreck
Posts: 147
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Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: My first T4 build

Post by wreck » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:48 pm

the CSP upright kit is based on the. "Cali" conversion which cools better than most porsche style shrouds unless a lot of R&D has gone into vane placement in the shrouds.CSP do 2 pulleys , a 175mm for T1 upright and a smaller one for Porsche fans . There are also other ways of keeping the heads cool if you live in a hot climate from water injection to oil spray bars and piston coolers .
I don't know whether you'll be able to get enough compression with the pistons you have, you can't flycut the heads too far to raise the comp because it causes all sorts of dramas from the head flexing because of the head stud spacing causing leaks, also hitting the exhaust studs .
The cam is also on the small for a big type 4 . It all depends if you just want a big torque monster or an. engine that revs over 6000 which can still be reliable since it's a type4 . :-) I'll have an answer on the clutch in a few weeks time .I've a 103x78 running a scat C55 in a Ghia thats had a few teething issues but should be up and running shortly , it has a 215mm stock clutch .
No matter where you go , there you are !

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Tony Z
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Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Re: My first T4 build

Post by Tony Z » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:46 pm

Thanks Wreck. I'd really be keen to know how your clutch holds up.
The pistons are an issue as the original owner wanted lower CR so he could run a turbo. Purely mathematically (i.e. without mocking up) I think I should be able to get a CR between 8:1 and 8.5:1. I do know that the larger bores weaken the head a lot, so I am trying to avoid cutting the head at all costs. So if I can shave the piston by 1mm and run a deck height of 1.1 to 1.3mm, I should be able to get CR close to 8.5:1
As far as revving goes, I'll be happy with an engine which I dont need to rev higher than 6000. I'll be happy with peak hp around 54000 to 5800rpm and bags of torque below that.
If I am not happy with the cam and CR, then hopefully I'll be out of my financial rut in the next year or two, so after getting the engine running and deciding which way I want to go, then I'll hopefully be able to afford the new parts. For now, I have those parts already, so its not costing me much to put it all back together.
I am pretty sure I measured my crank pulley at 147mm. So its likely the Porsche fan pulley.

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Clatter
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Re: My first T4 build

Post by Clatter » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:16 pm

All I can add for sure, is that I would be measuring the CR before you consider messing with the pistons.
With stroke _and_ bore, your cylinders will likely need shims, and more than enough compression should be available.
How many ccs are your heads?

Not that I have any direct experience,
But your aluminum cylinders and light car should made the Type 1 cooling more than enough.

Sounds like quite the score!
Would love to come across someone's abandoned project like this,
They're usually the best way to score a deal..
Should be REALLY fun motor!

What exhaust are you planning on running?
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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Tony Z
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Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Re: My first T4 build

Post by Tony Z » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:02 pm

I have measured the heads and pistons.
the heads come in at 73cc and the pistons have a 16cc dome, so that makes a combustion chamber of 89cc including the 1mm step in the heads. So if I cut 1mm off the pistons, I am hoping to rid myself of 6cc and if I keep the deckheight down to 0.1 to 0.3mm then I'll be between 8 and 8.5:1. The 1mm step in the heads will then give an effective DH of 1.1 to 1.3mm.
As said, I want to avoid cutting the heads so I can keep as much strength in them as possible.

The aly cylinders will help to keep things cool, as will any ceramic coating that I do.
On my T1 engines that I build for myself and others, I usually ceramic coat the exhaust valve as the absolute minimum. And trust me, my engines run cool, so the coating definitely helps.

Shims I'll make up as I need to.

I'll likely get an exhaust custom made locally. I'd love to get a python or A1 but once you factor in shipping and import duties it just gets too expensive. That and I just spent 14 months without work and only have a 2 month contract on this one... so finances are a bit tight. Hence me trying to use what I've got and not much else.

And yea, I do think I picked up quite a score with this one. I bought it originally for my 411 project, but since I am building the 1302 into a GL, it deserves the T4 engine.
And FWIW, we didnt get the 1302 or 1303 in SA. There are probably less than ten 1302's in SA and maybe 20 to 30 1303's.
So it deserves to be special.

There are only a handful of people in SA who have done something like this before, so the knowledge base is very small. Which is why I am asking for opinions here.

While I am at it... what kind of RPM range do you guys think this cam will work through? It should be a broad power cam judging by the specs, maybe a bit small for this engine but it should have bags of torque and be easy to drive.
I've got 40IDFs with 34mm venturies on the shelf which I'll use until I can afford 44's, probably with 38mm venturies.
Or, if I ever convert my 2332 to FI, then I'll move the 48's over to this engine.

Anymore feedback from others on the 215mm clutch?

wreck
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: My first T4 build

Post by wreck » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:17 pm

The biggest restriction to a big type 4 is valve size and getting enough out the exhaust . on all the research I did for my 2.6 the inlet valves (47mm) choke around 6300 ,( according to the info on this site going bigger in valves risks breaking through the bottom of the port .) so I matched the port size to suit. I went larger in the exhaust than most at 40mm to compensate for the poor port angle.
One of the books I have by David Vizard mentioned that the cam will only work where the head flow will allow it , I would say what you've got will have good usable power from 1500 to 5500 , a great street engine that will be enough to impress people even with 3 passengers in the car .
No matter where you go , there you are !

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Tony Z
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Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Re: My first T4 build

Post by Tony Z » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:13 pm

That my thinking too.
The heads I have are the original LE180's by Raby and Len. They were supposed to be able to flow to around 190hp. So heck, anywhere from 170hp upwards (once I have the right carbs) at around 5000rpm is plenty power. Even with the 40IDFs I should expect around 140hp, which for a lower spec engine is enough and it should be pretty smooth delivery.

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Clatter
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Re: My first T4 build

Post by Clatter » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Your heads are already cut for the 102s?
If so, I would be surprised to see the step still in place.
The step will only be helpful if its ID matches that of the bore..
They did all of that?

Check out this exhaust 'Fastbackdavid' on TOS fabbed up for himself. ;-)
Image
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

User avatar
Tony Z
Posts: 1205
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Re: My first T4 build

Post by Tony Z » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:19 pm

Hi Clatter

I'm not sure if it was the PO or Jake and Len, but someone did cut the heads for 102mm and left a 1mm step in them. Unfortunately I dont have a picture and I only get home again in Dec.
If the step isnt a good fit to the barrels, then I'll mill it out to match. I have the equipment at home to do this.

That exhaust really is nice. I am considering a 4-2-1 as an option and that one looks really well make. But I have read that a 4-1 is more forgiving if you get the lengths wrong. I'll have to see what the guys suggest when it comes to that stage in the build.
I'll be giving them a test run as I need a new 1.5" made up for my 2110 in my bus.

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