What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

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Lo Cash John
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What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Lo Cash John » Fri May 26, 2017 10:16 am

Just throwing this out there for input.

What would you be willing to pay for parts that are "Cali compatible"?

Hand laid fiberglass cylinder covers (would have correct cylinder numbers on them too.): $____
Hand laid carbon fiber cylinder covers (same mold as above): $____
Billet alternator/generator stand: $____
Aluminum degreed crank pulley (basic): $____
Billet aluminum degree pulley with steel hub (fancy): $____
Hand laid fiberglass rear oil cooler cover to accept round hose: $____
Hand laid front engine "tin" (Fills in behind fan shroud and below firewall): $____
Hand laid rear engine "tin" (fills in area around rear of motor and rear apron): $____
Mild steel header for Type 1 or Ghia (not sure about bus fitment). Would point rearward like traditional VW headers & use common 3 bolt flange: $____

Copy the above text into your post and paste in an HONEST price that would make you BUY these parts versus making them yourself.

And what if ALL of this were offered in a complete package? Imagine being able to order EVERYTHING at once and only pay one shipping bill.

If I forgot anything please add it.

wreck
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by wreck » Fri May 26, 2017 10:45 pm

http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au/sharpbuilt1/page11.htm

Mike charges around $500 AUD for the cylinder covers and Alt stand .
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Lo Cash John
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Lo Cash John » Sat May 27, 2017 4:52 pm

I know what Sharp and CSP sell stuff for but I don't ACTUALLY see it installed or used very often. My theory is the price point is to high leading to reduced sells.

So I'm asking folks who would consider buying these products, what is a reasonable price.

wreck
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by wreck » Sat May 27, 2017 6:30 pm

I'd say here in Aus nearly all type4 conversions are Sharpbuilt , whether Porsche or Type1 style , mainly because of freight costs and exchange rate , a DTM will cost over $2000 by the time it gets down under . Also by the time you buy 2 sets of cylinder tin and fab it the cost difference is not that different .
There is a fair bit of work in making the plugs and moulds and then a quality piece to sell , it depends on your fibreglassing experience I guess . If you have a look through the custom shroud thread I've made my own centred shroud . (I've got to do final testing yet waiting on heads getting custom valves to build a 2.6lt to trail it on)
I'm not sure if I'll go into produce , just depends on interest and price people would be willing to pay , much like yourself .
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Piledriver » Mon May 29, 2017 2:50 pm

If you could do it for about what Mike Sharp sells it for in Oz but in the US it would be a no brainer.
Just the main "tins" and surround $250, the stand ... The DTM stand needs a massage but is usable, used to be reasonable cost.
The front and moreso rear tin is the most critical for sealing, the side tins are trivial and flat stock works fine.
T1 front tin is relatively easy to make work, but if you want to make it a complete kit a front is needed, even if it is modified T1 steel. The "behind the pulley" tin could be FG custom fit for T4, and use std T1 rear tin to match.

The crank pulley can get pricey but is pretty trivial to make from a solid T1 pulley if you have a lathe you could probably produce a pile of them in a half hour.

Another option would be the CB centermount housing and FJCampers insert for even cooling, would need a custom T4 stand.
Provides a lot more room around the carbs etc.
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Clatter
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Clatter » Tue May 30, 2017 9:10 am

My guess is that the first law of classic economics would apply pretty quickly here;
The lower the cost the more you will sell.

$500 for everything would be a bargain if it included a header(!)


You are right about the cost being prohibitive.
I think about putting a type 4 in my Oval almost every day.
Then think of all the work, and/or the cost..
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
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Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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Lo Cash John
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Lo Cash John » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:30 pm

I appreciate the input so far however no one has actually provided the information asked for. My goal with this posting was to see what ACTUAL Type 4 users thought would be reasonable prices for some of these items.

I am aware that Mike Sharp sells his parts down in OZ, however I don't think he has a distributor here in the US. For the US market the "bolt on" options seem to be the CSP type 1 kit, a few 911 options, and the DTM kit. I was just thinking another, lower cost "bolt on" option, based on solid engineering and with a proven track record would be appealing.

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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Piledriver » Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:46 am

OK... Just look at what CSP charges for the basic kit, its basically ~$325 US minus the crank pulley.
(with current exchange rate and removing 20% VAT charge built into their prices)

Folks converting a 914 motor need an oil filler that screws int the stand.
That should work for everyone, given a block off plate for the case.
Its easy to add a $10 curved SBC MR. Gasket dipstick tube.

CSPs F&R tins are stupid priced, I doubt many buy those, T1 F&R tin is easy to adapt (assuming you do the sane thing and make the head tin to work with std T1 tin)) and usually free to anyone thats been in the hobby for any amount of time... (they probably have some)

The front<>rear connecting bits over the rocker boxes are just flat strips of metal.

Maybe 450 complete---tins and surround + hardware + pulley + stand (assumes slightly altered Chinese t1 F&R tin with a small glass behind pulley bit)

If you can come up with a decent and cheap header design, you'll have to price that via fab time and materials.
The "competition" is std HX with a Sebring 914 header (stockish) or EMW HX replacements with same.
These setups fit under a T1 easily, and work OK for most motors up to a mild 2270. (1.5")

If you are do a header, 1 5/8" stubs and 1 3/4" for the rest makes for easy tapered ex port stubs and might support a fairly hot 2270.
The Bursch or Sebring and EMW pipes will be hard to beat if you stay at 1.5".

Tins only ~200 for the cheap asses and the folks that don't mind fabricating a little sheetmetal and trimming a pulley themselves on a lathe, and make their own stand. (basically a Cali conversion minimal kit, saving having to make the tins)

I'd start with JUST the cylinder tin, and see how it moves.
I'll buy a set of just tins RFN just as I'm short full T4 tins at the moment due to making the Cali setup for my son a decade ago... :lol:
I don't even have a car for that right now, but you never know when something might turn up.

PS: A big sale killer of the CSP kit deal or whatever is the shipping from Europe.
If it was just in CONUS it would be sane.

IIRC someone in the US sells the CSP stuff but most of the shipping cost is still built into the price.

Tip: For the oil cooler bypass loop, just drill a hole between the passages on an EMPI oil cooler block adapter and plug the outlets. Also makes a great oil pressure case feed location, goes ~straight to the mains.
Last edited by Piledriver on Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Arnoud
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Arnoud » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:44 am

Hi!

I've installed the Ahnendorp(BAS)Cali-conversion which looks to me was later adopted by CSP.The fit of a fiberglass schroud is never going to be as good as a metal one.The fiberglass is too thick and the gaps are never going to be as small as the metal counterpart.
I am now building a conversion using Joe's book as a guideline and a CSP alternatorstand-the gaps of the metal covers are way smaller.
The thing that I never hear anyone about is the surrounding tin-does everyone run theirs without?

Cheers,Arnoud
Last edited by Arnoud on Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Piledriver » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:54 am

No, the tin and seal is required or it will overheat quickly.

I just modded T1 tin for the front and rear, and made up aluminum strips for over the heads.
The rear tin was the hardest, but I made proper fitting tin for behind the pulley so it actually sealed like stock.
The CSP "tin" is just a flat bit of fiberglass there with a cutout for the pulley, it has small gaps.

A Bay Bus "H" shaped foam engine compartment seal makes proper sealing easy.
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by oprn » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:22 am

I personally will not pay any money for any of the conversion kits out there presently as none of them are a COMPLETE cooling system. None of them offer a working, proven thermostat and related parts. That is fine if your running the car as a 1/4 miler, closed track or off road racing where the engine rarely sees part throttle but it is not a good idea for a street driven car. That is what is holding me back from converting right now, not price.

If you come up with a COMPLETE proven upright conversion cooling system, I will be the first in line to buy one and the price is not that important to me. Meanwhile I will put up with the stock setup.

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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Piledriver » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:17 pm

Hmmm...

IIRC Joe Calis manual cover this, and he at least has a working thermostat.
Expecting you to DIY for the thermostat is fair, as most people don't know enough to bother, and those who do, will.

The T1 tstat flaps actually fit in the std T1 fan housing... and work just fine at least with 2L Porsche spark plug location.
Some work would be needed with the std T4 plug location as the #1 plug boot and part of the tstat flap linkage want to occupy the same space, but looked easily fixable.

The CSP or whatever conversion kits are the same, so they can have the thermostat/flaps as well.
I'm not sure if they can fit in a DTM.

In most climates, an oil thermostat is more important, Porsche agreed and air cooled 911s did not have air thermostats, just oil.
Corvairs simply had a thermostat operated dump flap(s) on their fan housings, no air pressure = no cooling.
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by NextGen » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:00 am

Wow I was on Vacation in Florida and missed this post. The reason I did not do the surround tin is because there are so many variations between years. The Gen/Alt stand was always the most complicated, but guys have come up with adoptions over the years from very amazing CNC machined to using steel channel iron for simple bolting and or welding.

When I first wrote the manual I figured if you had to buy all the parts it would cost you $250, now years later Pirices have gone up. That was when the DTM was in the $500 range and the BAS we crazy expensive. I was happy when CSP started making kits it was a back up for Crank pulley and stand on top of the list, any more you may has well have bougth their kit. But as one of the guys pointed out No Thermo, but easy to adapto to their kit.

Also keep in mind the T-4 is very forgiving and don’t freak out if you are off a little. Out of all the Cali Styles that I sold manuals -- Never have I hear of one over heating. Usually it is they run too cool and some of the Euro guys run amazing high HP, no problems
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or
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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by qaxa » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:56 am

Did this ever get done? At least the tin parts?

I'll be making my own molds for the tin as well but as I'm residing in Europe won't be much of a help for the goes on the other side of the pond.

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Re: What would you pay for pre-made Cali Conversion parts?

Post by Lo Cash John » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:02 am

qaxa wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:56 am
Did this ever get done? At least the tin parts?

I'll be making my own molds for the tin as well but as I'm residing in Europe won't be much of a help for the goes on the other side of the pond.
There was such little response I don't know that it's worth pursuing.

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