T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:05 am

I was itching to get started, so I started on the head studs and holy crap, whaddya know, I got 4 of the shorter ones out! Double nutting and a torch did the job.Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction guys!

So....I need cut to fit pushrods? Bummer, since I just ordered a set of push rods for solid lifters (these: http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW/product/ ... ers_377456)

I'm guessing I'll need to return those. If so, would something like this be appropriate? https://www.amazon.com/EMPI-00-4034-0-L ... i+push+rod

These seem appropriate as well, but I'm trying to keep costs down where I can: http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Manton-3-8 ... h-rods.htm

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:14 pm

You should consider heavy duty aluminum pushrods. You're not building something with a ton off valve spring pressure so why go with a chromoly rod? Plus aluminum are quieter than chromoly.

In my way of thinking it's far more important to buy the cam and lifters as a match set since there's significant running between those surfaces and the harness must match exactly. Pushrods on the other hand have far more leeway so long as the ends fit the lifter and rocker correctly and they are the proper length.

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Piledriver
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Piledriver » Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:08 pm

I prefer the Manton CrMo pushrods, that way the lash increases as things heat up, rather than burning valves.
IME they are little>no noiser, and between the swivel feet and the CrMo pushrods actual adjustment should be infrequent.
Jake swears by them and I have found that to be a good call.

From what I have seen over the years the biggest wear item in the valvetrain is the stock adjuster screws vs. valve tips.
The swivel feet ~eliminate wear there.

You also want the HD rocker studs and spacers from EMW, Type4 store or aircooled.net sell them as well as EMW direct.
The spacers are sand/lap to fit, do it AFTER you install the HD studs.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:16 am

...and there was much rejoicing (yaaaaaay)...

Image

Again, thanks for all the advice. The torch paid off.

OK, I've got the solid rocker spacers (like these, but I got my set from Fat Performance: http://type4store.com/products/valvetra ... r-kit.html).

I need a set of these too, right? http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/pvw/0 ... y+Shim+Kit

And a push rod measuring tool, like this? https://www.amazon.com/PUSHROD-MEASURIN ... h+rod+tool

What other tools do I need for setting up/measuring rocker geometry?

I should be shipping my case off this Wednesday, so I'm ahead of things. I just like to have what I need before starting. Much thanks!
Last edited by analogtherapy on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:28 pm

You need the 8mm HD rocker studs if the ones you have are the 7mm factory ones, and a decent dial indicator and magnetic base.
IIRC HF sells a modded pair of cheap vise grips to use as a base for dial indicator. Useful.

A Harbor Freight mag stand setup works fine, but their dial indicators are the pits, with internal slop and just inconsistent.
A rusty 40 year old Starrett out of the bottom of somebodys toolbox will work far better.

Same for HF bore gauges, the machining on the ends is really the only issue with those.
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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:03 am

I have all the tools you need to set geometry and you are welcome to borrow them rather than spend money on tools you'll only use once. However, if you plan on building more engines in the future it is worth it to buy them.

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:51 am

That's very kind of you to offer John, and I really appreciate that. I bought the push rod length tool (it was cheap anyways), but haven't picked up a dial indicator yet. When my heads arrive and I get to this stage, I'll let you know.

Thanks John!

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Clatter
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Clatter » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:17 pm

I'm also a big fan of steel pushrods. (Jake was/is too).
They are only noisy if your motor is overheated.
During cold start, and normal operation, they are quieter.

Think about it - steel are set at 0 lash when cold vs. .006. for aluminum.
The .006 measurement when cold causes noise. It's just that - lash.
lash lash lash lash... LOL!

Ideally, that .006 'grows closed' to 0 when the motor comes up to temp.
But, it is very hard to guess exactly how much that growing will be,
And,
Because temps fluctuate, it will only be 0 at a certain (likely very high) temp.
And,
God forbid,
Pray it never goes negative (below 0 lash),
Because,
Like Pile said,
You could burn up a valve..

Some are nutty enough to track valve lash when the motor is at full hot operating temp, (ouch!)
Then adjust lash to be perfect there, and fall where it may when cold.
(BTDT)

Aluminum pushrods certainly have their place.
I love those dual-taper aluminum pushrods that Ac.net sells.
Aluminum is a great way to lighten your valve-train and reduce shock loads in a high-RPM 'race' motor.
I'm even using them right now in a mild motor, with more cam than single springs 'should' be able to control.
Lightening the valve-train in lieu of heavy springs is a noble cause to avoid valve float.

However,
in a bus motor,
With mild cam, single springs, and 5400RPM limit anyways,
There is not any real benefit to running aluminum,
Because float isn't an issue.

Plus,
If you hear your steel pushrod motor making lash noises,
You will instantly know your motor is overheated,
And you need to stop immediately.

Call it a back-up plan in case your temp gauge fails.. :-)
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
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Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:34 pm

Thanks gents. Once I get the push rods, since they are cut to length, what's the best way of cutting them?

Got the crank back today! It didn't need a grind, so it only got a polish and cleaning. Still within spec, so I'll be picking up std bearings shortly.

Image

I still need to have the cam gear cut to countersink the new cam bolts. Precision Crankshaft didn't do this kind of work. John, are there any local machinists you can recommend to do this? I know the type4store sells this gear already cut, but this is the gear from my engine, so I know the gear was selected with minimal backlash (at least to a degree likely better than random).
Image

Last question for today: The 2 lower engine tins (the ones that cover the push rod tubes)...how crucial are these? They are the only 2 tins I don't have, and of course they aren't cheap. Aside from protecting the push rod tubes, how important are they in relation to engine cooling? Thermostat operation? My engine didn't have a thermostat when I got it, and I'm restoring that functionality.

Thanks again for all the help! It really makes a difference.
Last edited by analogtherapy on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:05 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:20 pm

I do agree with steel pushrods being a good idea for creating noise in a hot engine. However a better way is with a hot oil temp warning light kit. It wires into the oil pressure idiot light and makes the light blink if the oil gets hot. It's in your field of view as you glance at the speedo, it's dead consistent and it still works even if you're blasting you radio. For every VW running steel pushrods, there're 100+ VWs running aluminum pushrods. I think if lash is properly set and the motor is not over-worked or bad tune, there's nothing to fear. And if it DOES get hot, the blinking oil light will tell you, even with the radio playing.

As for spot facing the cam gear for bolts, yes I have a buddy that can do that on his mill. Send me a PM (Private Message) with your contact info and I'll call/text/email/smoke signals/sign language/whatever.

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:27 am

Hey John, when you say hot oil temp warning light kit, you mean something like this?

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Oil-Temper ... ick-t4.htm

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:36 pm

Yup, that's it. Gene Berg used to sell a version that screwed into the case (I actually have one still in the package in my shop somewhere). That's the BEST way to know you're getting to hot. If that seller has the case version, consider going with it instead. More of a permanent install and less likely to wear out the wire from regularly checking oil level.

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Clatter
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Clatter » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:11 am

If you are going to set-up your thermostat, it is a good idea to get those lower 'sled tins'.
It's not 100% crucial. (like with a thermostat itself) but, you are right, the system was designed that way, so..

I'm envious of your cam gear. Having the factory-sized-to-case gear is SwEEt! :-)
Well played, sir..

IIRC Jake used an arrow cutter from the archery store to trim pushrods.
A lathe is likely best.
If you can determine your final number, and get one right, then take to a machinist, it goes quickly if they set a stop.

I have taken them down, a bit big, with a hack-saw,
And then crept up on my final number on the grinding wheel,
Spinning them to get them even,
And really screwing my mouth up trying to get them straight..

It worked,
But that don't make it right...
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:09 am

My buddy that can spot-face your cam gear can also cut and assemble your pushrods to length.

The arrow cutter is a bad ass idea but I never bothered looking into it since I can use a lathe when needed.

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:35 pm

Update: Things are slowly falling into place. Got the case shipped off to EMW. Used one of those heavy duty moving boxes from Lowes (24x18x18), and reinforced all sides, top, and bottom. A type IV case, packed full with dense foam and bubble wrap, and with a set of four rods to be reconditioned all came out to about 55 lbs. UPS wanted $110 total (with me adding $500 insurance). Not too bad.

And Aircooled.net finally got everything together and shipped it to me. Should arrive Monday, so I'll be in touch soon John.

Thanks!

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