T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Tue May 23, 2017 1:16 pm

I received my P&C's yesterday, and they all look good, except for one. I'm about to start the return process, but before I commit to that (buyer pays return shipping costs), will the damage seen here make much of a difference in the end? Thanks.

Image

Image

Image

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Wed May 24, 2017 2:48 pm

Pics aren't showing up for me.

I live in Jax also. Where are you at?

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Wed May 24, 2017 3:08 pm

Nice! Over near the Bartram Park area. What side of town are you on?

Here's a link to the photos on dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4y2c2213qbyl ... OzGNa?dl=0

Let me know what you think. I've started the return process, but if it's not that big of a deal, i'd rather just not deal with the headache.

Thanks!

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Fri May 26, 2017 9:48 am

I'm just up the street near Greenland Rd and Old St Augustine Rd.

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Clatter
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Clatter » Tue May 30, 2017 9:27 am

Hi,

While I have re-used P&L on builds before,
The Cheap Junk build got new. (Cofaps were the junky ones back in the day)
They were on Craigslist, with a broken fin or two, for $50, IIRC..

There is a whole dialog with these that I kind of skipped over in that thread.
Most who care/try are going to just get a set of AAs and go.
Unless they can find a set of Mahles from Brazil..

With the quality of these, however, They would still need similar attention as the Cofaps got in my build.
Most any automotive machine shop should be able to put a correct hone on them.
Check everything - ring gap, ring side clearance,
And now, even ring material... Supposedly there are batches of AAs shipping with rings that are soft.
Make sure they spring back into place after coming home.

Keep going!
And post pics.. We like pics.. :-)
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:59 pm

Clatter wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 9:27 am
Unless they can find a set of Mahles from Brazil..

With the quality of these, however, They would still need similar attention as the Cofaps got in my build.
Most any automotive machine shop should be able to put a correct hone on them.
Check everything - ring gap, ring side clearance
So I finally got that P&C thing sorted out. Shipped back the damaged ones, got a new set that have no visible damage. Just an FYI for anyone who sometimes shops on eBay, seller partscontainer is good on their word (and prices).

Clatter, yea these are Mahle Brazil. So you'd recommend getting these honed at a machinist? Being a completely green newb to engine building, is there a specific measurement to tell the machinist to hone them to? I can refer to Wilson's book, but since I'm here I just figured I'd ask.

Speaking of machine work.. So this is the list of work to be done at the machinist that I have so far. What I don't know, is how much of this is completely necessary, and how to tell if it is/isn't. On to the list of potential work:

-Polish the crank (my crank looks really good, to me. Is this necessary?)
-Drill/grind down original aluminum 'C' cam gear (to countersink the new cam bolts)
-Hone the cylinders
-Resurface the flywheel (Is this necessary? My flywheel looks pretty good too. No obvious grooves/wear)
-Balance: Crank, rods, pistons, fan (and hub), flywheel
-Case: Align bore (I'm really not sure this needs to be done, I'm only adding it because my Type 1 friends have mentioned it like it was gospel)
-Case: Decked (Only adding this because your build mentions it. I haven't checked my case yet if it needs it)
-Clean: Case, various parts (I've pressure washed, but it's still nowhere near as clean as you mention in your Cheap Junk build)

Is that it?

Rods. So I had an idiot moment with one of the nuts from my original rods when trying to remove them from the crank. Clearance was really tight and I couldn't get any of my wrenches to seat completely on this nut (the only one I had this problem with out of all the rest). It was also on the tightest, and I was starting to round out the edges of the nut. So...I broke out my trusty Dremel and cut an angle into the nut, diagonally from top to bottom to relieve some of the tension. It worked, but I ended up damaging the rod bolt in the process (I really tried not to). I tried searching for replacement bolts for the original rods, but that seemed unrealistically expensive. I won't know the specs on a used OG rod, and NOS type 4 rods are also way expensive (when you can find them). This brings me to these: http://type4store.com/products/connecti ... 20-rj.html. I'm thinking of just ditching the original rods, and going with these. Any reason I shouldn't (aside from the cost).

Last question... (for now) :)

Rebuilt heads from Headflow Masters ($450 x2), or Blueprint Specials from Hoffman ($1520). Originally I was going with HM, but the HAM heads really seem like money well spent (and I like the .8mm raised step built in to the cylinder registers). With my build budget, this ads one extra month until est. build completion. What is your opinion between these 2 options? I'm going for a 'not cheap junk' build. Which would you choose?

Thoughts?

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:05 pm

Lo Cash John wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 9:48 am
I'm just up the street near Greenland Rd and Old St Augustine Rd.
Yea man, literally right up the road! That's awesome! BTW, do you know/trust any of the machine shops around town? A buddy of mine recommended Precision Crankshaft downtown.

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Piledriver
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Piledriver » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:48 pm

I assume all your friends have T1s.
Align bored is gospel ---on a mag case T1.

You have a pressure die cast aluminum cased T4 with much larger main bearings that usually doesn't need align bored, but you still need to check that, and the thrust fit, and the center main gap.

Replacement bearings are sometimes larger OD than the originals so you (or your machinist) really need to check.

The step cut for the chamber may or may not be a feature, it can give you too much deck on a ~stock build.
If you need to deck the case, it may work out great, but you have to assemble and measure things to know.


Adrian does perfectly good work, but don't let him upsell you to Manley valves, the std SI valves he uses are great.
HAM of course only sells heads built on new AMC castings.

RIMCO does "Super Rods", rebuilt stock but "prepped", shot peened etc with Carrillo Pure Unobtainium bolts, used to be ~$200.

The H beams with the 24mm pin are REALLY thin at the small end.

I personally prefer the stockers with good bolts. Rimco can lighten them.
There is also the BBC bolt option.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Clatter
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Clatter » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:48 pm

analogtherapy wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:59 pm
Clatter wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 9:27 am
Unless they can find a set of Mahles from Brazil..

With the quality of these, however, They would still need similar attention as the Cofaps got in my build.
Most any automotive machine shop should be able to put a correct hone on them.
Check everything - ring gap, ring side clearance
So I finally got that P&C thing sorted out. Shipped back the damaged ones, got a new set that have no visible damage. Just an FYI for anyone who sometimes shops on eBay, seller partscontainer is good on their word (and prices).

Clatter, yea these are Mahle Brazil. So you'd recommend getting these honed at a machinist? Being a completely green newb to engine building, is there a specific measurement to tell the machinist to hone them to? I can refer to Wilson's book, but since I'm here I just figured I'd ask.


*****Old-school automotive machine shops usually always had a traditional cylinder hone.
This was typically a huge 3-arm machine with a coolant pump and assortment of honing stones in different grits.
You want the old man's skilled hand on the nice vintage machine to do his thing.
It will make the cylinders rounder than they were from the factory,
And you should get a rough grit, followed by a fine grit - to give a 'plateau finish'.
This will also have the old man looking very carefully at the clearance of all pistons to cylinders,
Which can be off from new.
You generally end up having little removed, just enough to get things right.******

Speaking of machine work.. So this is the list of work to be done at the machinist that I have so far. What I don't know, is how much of this is completely necessary, and how to tell if it is/isn't. On to the list of potential work:

-Polish the crank (my crank looks really good, to me. Is this necessary?) ****Have the old-timer check it out****
-Drill/grind down original aluminum 'C' cam gear (to countersink the new cam bolts) ****they sell these new at the type 4 store if you don't want to/can't get the measurement, and/or don't have access to machine tools****
-Hone the cylinders ***see above****
-Resurface the flywheel (Is this necessary? My flywheel looks pretty good too. No obvious grooves/wear) ****many do this for 'good measure' as it's already there at the shop already****
-Balance: Crank, rods, pistons, fan (and hub), flywheel ****Love it!****
-Case: Align bore (I'm really not sure this needs to be done, I'm only adding it because my Type 1 friends have mentioned it like it was gospel) ***Measure first - type 4s need it FAR less than type 1****
-Case: Decked (Only adding this because your build mentions it. I haven't checked my case yet if it needs it) ****I always do this. They ALL need some, so why not?****
-Clean: Case, various parts (I've pressure washed, but it's still nowhere near as clean as you mention in your Cheap Junk build) ****Cleanliness is next to godliness****

Is that it?

Rods. So I had an idiot moment with one of the nuts from my original rods when trying to remove them from the crank. Clearance was really tight and I couldn't get any of my wrenches to seat completely on this nut (the only one I had this problem with out of all the rest). It was also on the tightest, and I was starting to round out the edges of the nut. So...I broke out my trusty Dremel and cut an angle into the nut, diagonally from top to bottom to relieve some of the tension. It worked, but I ended up damaging the rod bolt in the process (I really tried not to). I tried searching for replacement bolts for the original rods, but that seemed unrealistically expensive. I won't know the specs on a used OG rod, and NOS type 4 rods are also way expensive (when you can find them). This brings me to these: http://type4store.com/products/connecti ... 20-rj.html. I'm thinking of just ditching the original rods, and going with these. Any reason I shouldn't (aside from the cost).

****Didn'tja see my clearanced socket on the first page?? :P .. I'd be finding me some stock rods on craigslist or TOS,
And have your old-timer at the local FLAPS to a re-build on them. Or, if you really care, get some from Rimco****

Last question... (for now) :)

Rebuilt heads from Headflow Masters ($450 x2), or Blueprint Specials from Hoffman ($1520). Originally I was going with HM, but the HAM heads really seem like money well spent (and I like the .8mm raised step built in to the cylinder registers). With my build budget, this ads one extra month until est. build completion. What is your opinion between these 2 options? I'm going for a 'not cheap junk' build. Which would you choose?

****I love my HAM heads. Rebuilt on new castings... MMmmmm. always better than used rebuilt****

Thoughts?
**** Are you __Sure__ you wouldn't be better off just buying a whole engine kit off of the type 4 store?
Get yourself the ported big-valve heads, cam kit, 72-74 heater boxes, and build a clone 'Camper Special'..****
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:20 pm

Precision Crankshaft is a quality shop but they are not geared to do aircooled VW work on a daily basis, therefore you're going to be paying for their set-up time.

On the northside there's HillTop Motors. Do NOT let them machine your case.

In general there are no good VW specific machine shops here in town. It really is cost effective to ship the case to a VW specific shop for the work. I have used EMW for several builds.

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:20 pm

Precision Crankshaft is a quality shop but they are not geared to do aircooled VW work on a daily basis, therefore you're going to be paying for their set-up time.

On the northside there's HillTop Motors. Do NOT let them machine your case.

In general there are no good VW specific machine shops here in town. It really is cost effective to ship the case to a VW specific shop for the work. I have used EMW for several builds.

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:34 pm

Lo Cash John wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:20 pm
Precision Crankshaft is a quality shop but they are not geared to do aircooled VW work on a daily basis, therefore you're going to be paying for their set-up time.

On the northside there's HillTop Motors. Do NOT let them machine your case.

In general there are no good VW specific machine shops here in town. It really is cost effective to ship the case to a VW specific shop for the work. I have used EMW for several builds.
Noted. Yea, I had considered a few of the other well known shops, like RIMCO, and EMW but I've never shipped heavy items like would need to be shipped in this situation, so I've held off on that (thinking the shipping costs would be astronomical). Apart from the cost of shipping, I'm not even really sure how to properly ship items like a case.

I like Hilltop for parts, but I wouldn't use them for type 4 build/work.

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:00 pm

Clatter wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:48 pm
**** Are you __Sure__ you wouldn't be better off just buying a whole engine kit off of the type 4 store?
Get yourself the ported big-valve heads, cam kit, 72-74 heater boxes, and build a clone 'Camper Special'..****
Lots of info to chew on here from the recent posts, but for a moment, I want to focus on this question.

"Are you __Sure__ you wouldn't be better off just buying a whole engine kit off of the type 4 store?"

Well, maybe? So, way back when I decided that a rebuild was in my future, I ended up at the Type4Store, and their kit. And at the time, looking at the kit for my '79, $5,650.00 was a lot to swallow.

Currently, looking at my build plan, I'm at $4,237.xx (not including machine work, and some shipping costs). BTW, I'm being transparent on the costs because a) why not, and b) because other less experienced guys like myself might benefit from knowing what potential costs may be (at least for 2017).

For a more detailed look into my plan, here's my spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
(Items that are zeroed out have either been bought, or were added as alternatives/possibilities, but not yet committed to the build)

In any case, back to the type4store kit question. Well, I guess at this point there are 2 reasons. I have some of those parts already. Some new - like the P&C's, the clutch kit, some of the seals, and some original-but-in-good-shape, like the crank itself (an expensive add on to the kit I'm sure).

And that kit price doesn't include induction.

I'll be honest, at times this does get somewhat overwhelming (for me, the layman). Which is why I'm keeping a spreadsheet as I go. I'm trying to re-use as many parts that I can (including my original, square port heater boxes), but adding high quality new parts as well.

But since I just am not that knowledgeable, is there a reason that maybe I really should consider the type4store kit?

Otherwise, I'll just keep slowly plugging along, leaning on the community each step of the way :)

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Lo Cash John
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Lo Cash John » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:06 am

In my past experience, shipping a case to EMW was about $70 one way. To ship the case you must remove the head studs first. Get a nice heavy duty box that fits the case and has a couple inches room to spare on the sides. In the bottom of the box place a couple large sheets of cardboard (Cut to exact size of inside of box) to re-enforce bottom. Next, use pieces of cardboard all around the case to fill the void inside the box. Once that's done, use some cardboard to fill void above case inside the box. The objective is to have the case surrounded by multiple layers of cardboard on all sides.

USPS is the cheapest option to ship however UPS and FedEx aren't much more but shop around.

You should also consider calling EMW and talking to them about the parts you need. They seem to be very cost effective and have been doing Type 4 stuff decades.

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:37 pm

Lo Cash John wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:06 am
In my past experience, shipping a case to EMW was about $70 one way. To ship the case you must remove the head studs first. Get a nice heavy duty box that fits the case and has a couple inches room to spare on the sides. In the bottom of the box place a couple large sheets of cardboard (Cut to exact size of inside of box) to re-enforce bottom. Next, use pieces of cardboard all around the case to fill the void inside the box. Once that's done, use some cardboard to fill void above case inside the box. The objective is to have the case surrounded by multiple layers of cardboard on all sides.

USPS is the cheapest option to ship however UPS and FedEx aren't much more but shop around.

You should also consider calling EMW and talking to them about the parts you need. They seem to be very cost effective and have been doing Type 4 stuff decades.
OK, that's not anywhere near as bad as I originally thought. Thanks for the info John!

I haven't removed any case studs yet. Do I remove all of them, or just the 16 studs that hold the heads on?

I've been a bit hesitant in removing the studs. Is there anything I should be cautious of, or look for when removing them?

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