T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:13 pm

Clatter wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:11 pm
MMmmmMMMmm, That's some nice looking stuff all clean like that.

Love them lifter bore sleeves..

Did you ever have your crank/flywheel/pressure plate/fan spin-balanced as an assembly?
That's worth doing for sure, when you have everything apart like this..

Don't forget to check your oil pump out,
And make sure your timing mark is er, marked accurately.

FWIW, I have never had any luck whatsoever getting paint or powder or polish or anything to stick to a mag fan shroud long term.
Thanks Clatter! I feel like I've cleaned cleaned and more cleaned! I would like to add a tip for anyone who might not know: I wanted to make sure the oil galleys were clear of metal debris, so I took both case halves outside and used a garden hose to flush them out. Sure enough, there were several pieces of metal chips/flakes that were large enough to make me glad for flushing them :shock:

Oh, and yep, got the whole assembly balanced. Crank/flywheel/pressure plate/fan, and bolts. And rods and pistons balanced.

So, question...

I just got both case halves mated, with a thin coat of Permatex form a gasket. I put my flywheel on so I could more easily rotate the crankshaft to check for any binding. So....how easily should it turn? Mine turns, and doesn't feel like it's binding. But it does feel tighter than it did when turning it prior to both case halves being on it (which sounds completely reasonable, but...I'm just a bit paranoid at the moment).

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:09 pm

I'll add this: In Jake Raby's video he turns his using the rotor on the distributor. Mine won't do that.

I can turn it using just the fan hub. It's not what I would call an "easy" turn, but I can turn it with one hand.

I'm pretty sure that I seated the bearing dowels correctly. I took photos at the time showing the front and rear main bearings seated as far as they could go. If these were seated correctly, I would think that both of the two other bearings were seated correctly as well (or the case itself wouldn't seal correctly/cleanly). Is that a reasonable conclusion?

Image

Image

FYI: The crank journals only got a polish, and the bearings are STD inners, .020 outer. Case received an align bore of .020.

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:24 pm

Update: I removed all case hardware, and separated the halves.

I noticed some faults right off the bat.

1) I had applied a bit too much form-a-gasket near the cam plug, and some had worked its way into the closest cam bearing.

2) The No 1 main bearing seemed a bit sluggish to turn by hand. It's possible that some of the form-a-gasket worked it's way into it as well. I'll clean it up, and give it a fresh coat of lube. BTW, I'm using Ultra Slick Engine Lube.

3) I think this may be the real issue: I had a local shop press on the crankshaft gears. When they did this, they put the No 3 main bearing on, and used white grease. I thought the white grease was too thick, and it made the bearing a bit harder to spin compared to the others. So I poured a bit of Ultra Slick into the bearing. But it seems to have made it tackier, because just trying to spin that bearing is noticeably more difficult than the others.

So, is there any way to flush the white grease out, and start fresh without having to have the shop pull the gears and remove the bearing? If not, I guess I'll be making another trip there.

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sideshow
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by sideshow » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:49 pm

White grease is not a bad choice, a classic in the industry. Any of the aftermarket super-ultra-bling-lube I notice to have a high film strength, I see no harm in minor amounts being used. Unless it is going into storage, plain oil works fine on the crank.

Any aerosol spray oil will flush a lot of it out, marvels mystery is a favorite of mine. But why?

And no signs of "new" dowel pin dents typically means it seated ok, but look to make sure after the line bore that the case side of the hole is deep enough to prevent pinching.
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

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Clatter
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by Clatter » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:18 am

I'm kind of a nut for these things,
But with the bearings available today, you can never be too sure.
Main bearing tolerances these days are VERY suspect!
Don't think it's like the old days where you just install them..!

I put just the cam in, and torque the case bolts, and check (wack) it for end play and free turning all by itself.

Also put the crank in the bearings, no rods or cam, and check that way.

Obviously, with no glue, and also with just a bit of light oil.

I'd be blasting away all the white grease and lube you used with carb cleaner and compressed air.
(Not that there's anything wrong with white grease or the stuff you used)
You just want to get good feel.
Again, light oil..

Dowel pins can be too long,
The dowel pin hole in the bearing can be too shallow,
And, like 'Sideshow' said, the line-bore can make your pin holes shallow in the case.

So, be sure to check for a 'witness mark' where the pin might be pinching..
You might see it as a shiny, or silver spot on the bearing where it rides on the crank journal..

I even like to check the spin of the crank with the main case bolts at 5 or10 ft. lbs. or some other light number,
And make sure it's the same, or very close, to how it feels torqued to spec..

The mains are the hardest thing to get perfect now that bearing tolerances have gone to China junk random specs.

You might also consider using a plastigauge on the center main?

Also make sure the two halves of the center main are not proud of the case parting line.
Look and feel with a straightedge..
Torque the case halves with just the main shells in place.
look at the parting line to make sure the halves aren't being held apart.
It will look like the spread center main in the pic in my cheap junk build.
Have had to shave the ends of the center main shells at the parting line lately - sand the ends of the shells on wet/dry because they were too big/long..

Bearings can totally suck and blow sometimes nowadays.
Make very very sure you are not getting handed a steaming pile of 3rd world garbage disguised as bearings!
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

TZepeSH
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Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by TZepeSH » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:34 am

How did you get that engine case so clean? I washed mine in the dishwasher and it is nowhere near so clean. I like your work!

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analogtherapy
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:01 pm

sideshow wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:49 pm
White grease is not a bad choice, a classic in the industry. Any of the aftermarket super-ultra-bling-lube I notice to have a high film strength, I see no harm in minor amounts being used. Unless it is going into storage, plain oil works fine on the crank.

Any aerosol spray oil will flush a lot of it out, marvels mystery is a favorite of mine. But why?

And no signs of "new" dowel pin dents typically means it seated ok, but look to make sure after the line bore that the case side of the hole is deep enough to prevent pinching.
OK, thanks sideshow! Will do.

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analogtherapy
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:45 am

Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:03 pm

Clatter wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:18 am
I'm kind of a nut for these things,
But with the bearings available today, you can never be too sure.
Main bearing tolerances these days are VERY suspect!
Don't think it's like the old days where you just install them..!

I put just the cam in, and torque the case bolts, and check (wack) it for end play and free turning all by itself.

Also put the crank in the bearings, no rods or cam, and check that way.

Obviously, with no glue, and also with just a bit of light oil.

I'd be blasting away all the white grease and lube you used with carb cleaner and compressed air.
(Not that there's anything wrong with white grease or the stuff you used)
You just want to get good feel.
Again, light oil..

Dowel pins can be too long,
The dowel pin hole in the bearing can be too shallow,
And, like 'Sideshow' said, the line-bore can make your pin holes shallow in the case.

So, be sure to check for a 'witness mark' where the pin might be pinching..
You might see it as a shiny, or silver spot on the bearing where it rides on the crank journal..

I even like to check the spin of the crank with the main case bolts at 5 or10 ft. lbs. or some other light number,
And make sure it's the same, or very close, to how it feels torqued to spec..

The mains are the hardest thing to get perfect now that bearing tolerances have gone to China junk random specs.

You might also consider using a plastigauge on the center main?

Also make sure the two halves of the center main are not proud of the case parting line.
Look and feel with a straightedge..
Torque the case halves with just the main shells in place.
look at the parting line to make sure the halves aren't being held apart.
It will look like the spread center main in the pic in my cheap junk build.
Have had to shave the ends of the center main shells at the parting line lately - sand the ends of the shells on wet/dry because they were too big/long..

Bearings can totally suck and blow sometimes nowadays.
Make very very sure you are not getting handed a steaming pile of 3rd world garbage disguised as bearings!
Lot's of good suggestions. Thanks Clatter. I'll be giving it another go in the next couple of days, and will report back.

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analogtherapy
Posts: 36
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Re: T4 Tear Down / Rebuild in Jax FL

Post by analogtherapy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:08 pm

TZepeSH wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:34 am
How did you get that engine case so clean? I washed mine in the dishwasher and it is nowhere near so clean. I like your work!
Haha! Thanks! Yea this was a multi-stage cleaning. Pre-machine work, it was 1) engine de-greaser and a scrub brush. 2) pressure washer. Then the machine shop gave it a bath, and after that, it got a run in the house dishwasher. :D

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