Uprated 210 mm pressure plate.

[GARRICK.CLARK]

Hi guys.
I've modified and tuned my turbo type 4 motor to the point that the stock pressure plate isn't strong enough. Is there any available in the 210mm size. Its a street bug so not looking for a hard pedal. What spec should I be getting.

[Marc]

The Stage 2's pedal pressure isn't excessive, and with the right disc it may be enough for your application.
You do have some control over the pedal pressure by selection of the "hook" at the pedal and release lever at the trans, too...short hook/long lever gives the most leverage for a lighter pedal. What year chassis & trans?

Disc choices are pretty limited in 210mm - many just use a 200 disc (Daiken Super, Copperhead, RLR Black Magic, etc.) with good results.

[GARRICK.CLARK]

Hi Marc. Chassis is a 67 bug. So I'd have to change the disc as well. Was hoping I could use the standard 1

[Marc]

`67 pedal cluster should already have the shortest clutch cable hook; there are two lengths of release lever for the small-cross-shaft transmissions.
I apologize for teasing the Stage 2, I thought that Kennedy made them in 210 but after looking at their site I guess they only make 200, 215 and 228 versions.
The early 4-speed 411s came with a steel 200mm flywheel; switching to a 200 would dramatically increase your choices in clutch components. They're rare as hen's teeth in the US, though. The best new one available is made by Kennedy; there are cheaper options out there but I know nothing of their quality.
http://type4store.com/products/clutch-f ... wheel.html
https://aapistons.com/collections/flywh ... -200mm-12v
...probably the AA (higher price but shipping's free):
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... C20%2D5100

[GARRICK.CLARK]

No problem Marc . So its looking like I need a flywheel as well. Ok so be it. I'll look into finding a 200 mm fly 1st.
Cheers

[Marc]

I found the article I wanted to refer you to. http://www.tunacan.net/t4/index.shtml is defunct now, but someone quoted it a few years ago at T.O.S. so I'll do the same here:

Pressure Plate | Disc | Recommendations

Pressure plate

Once you've got a fire breathing Type 4 with all of the goodies on, you'll want to use that horsepower. This is the job of the clutch. The clutch choice is important, as too light duty a clutch setup and you'll warp both the clutch and the flywheel, and you'll go no where. Too heavy a clutch is hard on the driver and the engine/transaxle mounts, and the rest of the drivetrain.

It is critical to realize to realize when dealing with clutches, that are two different styles of clutches for the Type 4. This relates to the flywheels in that there is a 914 clutch setup and a VW clutch setup. Unless you plan on running a 914 or 911 transaxle in your project, you will need to run a VW style clutch.

The VW clutches were available in 4 different diameters: 200mm, 210mm, 215mm and 228mm. The 200mm is the same pressure plate and clutch disc as a Type 1 200mm, so any of the high performance pressure plates and discs could be used. But keep in mind that a larger diamter clutch does not require as much spring pressure to stay connected. In other words you can have a softer pedal with more clamping power than a stock 200mm by using a 215mm or 228mm stock clutch. If you decide to use the larger clutches (210-228), make sure your transaxle is setup for the later style throw out bearing with the sleeve mounted in the transaxle. The pressure plates are only available without the ring in the center. I was told that Carter's Gearbox sells an adaptor that converts an earlier transaxle to use the later style throw out.

Disc

When it comes to clutch discs, there isn't much choice. For the larger size (210mm-228mm) the selections are pretty limited to the stock discs. The only things to keep in mind is selecting a rigid vs. a sprung disc and the quality of the disc. The sprung disc features springs in the clutch disc that makes engagement smoother and relieves the drivetrain the shock of the abrupt engagement. The problem is that with "spirited" driving the springs can fail. As to the quality issue, a well built disc, from a recognized brand can provide thousands of miles of spirited driving. Get a low quality disc and wait for the inevitable failure.

You'll notice that drag race cars will use three puck clutch discs. Three puck discs can be very violent and has been known to rip apart transaxle mounts. The 3-puck disc does not have a gradual bite, it is either engaged or disengaged. So on the street there's no riding the clutch in traffic or having a smooth take offs. This violent engagement/disengagement is also hard on the engine and transaxle. 3-puck discs will require regular flywheel resurfacing to maintain a flat, unwarped engaging surface.

Recommendations

As for recommendations, it all matters upon which transaxle you are planning on running and what state of tune your motor will be in. For the average Type 1 transaxle and a stock-mild 2.0, I would run either the 200mm with a Stage 1 Kennedy pressure plate with Berg Dual Friction solid center disc, or a stock 210/215 clutch. The 210/215 will probably require the bell housing of the transaxle to be clearanced. The 210/215 would probably be the cost effective option, as the original 200mm flywheels are difficult to find, the KEP 200mm flywheel is expensive, and the 210/215 clutch pressure plate/disc is more expensive.

If you plan on running a Bus IRS transaxle (002 or 091), go for the big one and run the 228mm pressure plate and disc. If you've converted your car to use the Bus IRS transaxle, chances are you going to doing some rough things with the car and will have a serious engine motivating it. I don't recall right now what's available for high performance pressure plates and discs for the 228mm, but make sure you buy something that will take the horsepower you anticipate on making. Quality parts will mean you've got control for that fire breathing monster of a Type 4 behind you.

Finally, if you are building a racing vehicle of some sort, like a drag racing or sand dragging, use a high performance 228mm pressure and a 3 puck clutch disc. This setup will give you the maximum holding power available and will get you to the finish line. I wouldn't recommend running this setup on a street car or dune cruiser.



FLYWHEELS

The flywheels used on Type 4 engines can be classified into two different categories:VW and Porsche. The Porsche 914/912E used a different flywheel than the VW cars (411, 412, and Bus). The Volkswagens used four different flywheels, each having a different diameter clutch disc and pressure plate. The very early 411s used a 200mm clutch, thus it is compatible with the popular aftermarket Type 1 clutch discs and pressure plates. Next came the 210mm, 215mm, and the 228mm flywheels.

The 914/912E flywheel had a 215mm diameter face and used a unique pressure plate and disc to mate it to the Porsche transaxle. This flywheel differs from the VW flywheel in that the starter ring gear is offset differently and will cause a VW starter not to engage properly. This flywheel will be necessary only if the car you will be installing the Type 4 into uses a Porsche transaxle, such as the 901 or 915. The rest of this tech article will cover using a Type 4 engine with a Type 1 transaxle, as you can use the stock Porsche starter to finish the Porsche setup.

The Type 4 200mm flywheel was only available on the 1969 VW 411. This car was only available in Europe in limited numbers, so finding this flywheel is quite difficult. Due to this scarcity of the 200mm flywheel, Kennedy Engineering, the makers of the famed KEP pressure plates and adaptors, offers a 200mm flywheel for the Type 4s. By using this flywheel, or the original 200mm, a Type 4 engine will slide right into a standard 12V Type 1-3 transmission. These flywheels also give the engine builder a large variety of proven pressure plates and clutch discs. A standard 12-volt Type 1 starter meshes up perfectly, with the self-supporting Bosch SR17X being my favorite.

The Type 4 200mm, the 210mm, and the 215mm are all the same outside diameter and are basically identical with the exception of the clutch face diameter. The starter ring tooth count is the same as a 12V/200mm Type 1 (130 teeth). The 228mm flywheel has the same starter ring, but the raised portion on the outer edge of the flywheel makes it larger overall and requires the use of a self supporting starter.

As the diameter of the pressure plate increases, the issue of pressure plate height becomes an issue. The larger pressure plates are more likely to have clearance issues in the bellhousing where the housing slopes from the input shaft to the outer lip. It is here that you will run into problems with the 228mm flywheel. It is possible to clearance safely for the 215mm, but the 228mm leaves the bellhousing quite thin.

Now let's take a look at the issues of flywheel selections and the best options.

Forged vs. Cast

Probably the one weakness of the Type 4 flywheel is the fact that most Type 4 flywheels are cast iron. A forged flywheel, like the one used on the Type 1, is much stronger, and for organizations like the NHRA, are often necessary. The Type 1 200mm flywheel was forged from the factory, so it's a non-issue for the Type 1 crowd.

A careful reader will notice that I said that most Type 4 flywheels are cast; as there are a few forged options. The 228mm from the Wasserboxer, the 200mm 411, and the Kennedy Engineering 200mm are all forged options for the Type 4 engine builder.

But this is only of concern to the few Type 4 engines being built. For 99% of the street engines out there, the cast flywheel does the job quite well. It's rugged and easily obtainable from a manual transmission Bus or 411/412.

Pilot Bearing modification

All Type 4 engines have the pilot shaft (also called the input shaft) bearing in the crankshaft. There is no pilot shaft bearing installed in automatic transmission engines. The input shaft of the transaxle must be extended to reach the pilot shaft bearing if you are using a Type 1 transaxle. The input shaft of a type 1 trans is shorter to accomidate the pilot sahft bearing in the gland nut. When a short type 1 input shaft is mated to a type 4 engine, the input shaft falls short of the mark and simply rests in the hole in the Type 4 flywheel. To "fix" this condition, remove the old Type 4 pilot shaft bearing from the flywheel. Next, purchase a new Type 4 pilot shaft bearing (this bearing is also the exact same one used in the Type 1 gland nut, so you can use a replacement one from those too). Take the flywheel and the new bearing to a competent machinist. Have the flywheel center hole enlarged so that the new pilot shaft bearing may be PRESSED into position. It should be positioned so that it's flush on the "clutch" side of the flywheel. The thickness at the flywheel is about 0.400" so the new pilot shaft bearing will stick out the backside and end up partially in the crankshaft. Thats why the old one must be removed. A light dab of wheel bearing grease finishes the job.

Just as a sidenote: the KEP flywheel already has this modification done to it, so it's a bolt on solution.

5-dowel modification

Much like the common practice of adding dowels to a Type 1 crankshaft, some tuners have found that adding a dowel between each bolt hole that mounts the flywheel to the crank aids in keeping the flywheel attached, even under severe use. Some tuners feel that this modification makes the center of flywheel too weak, and thusly do not recommend it.

If you are building a Type 4 for drag racing or off road racing purposes, I suggest that you look into this matter and make the decision for yourself. Talk to your engine builder or to your machine for their opinion.

Lightening

A common sight on modified Type 1 engines is a lightened flywheel. Lightened flywheels are usually used on cars used for drag racing or for road racing. Most street engines would be better off with the stock weight to retain long bearing life and higher gas mileage.

Lightening a flywheel decreases the rotating mass of the crank assembly, and results in fast acceleration. Of course, less momentum is stored as a result, and it results in fast rpm drops when you make off the flywheel. This will also result in decreased fuel mileage, so knowing how you are going to drive your car will be best determining if lightening is for you.

Commonly, a lightened flywheel weighs anywhere from 12-13 lbs; any less than this and the engine suffers with bearing failure. It's is important to remove the weight from the outer edge of the flywheel, closest to the starter gear. If you remove too much weight from behind the clutch surface closer to the center, flywheel warpage can result.

Recommendations

For the average street Type 4 engine with a Type 1 transaxle, I recommend using any of the 200mm, 210mm or 215mm VW flywheels. They will all slide into a 12V bellhousing with little to no clearancing. The 228mm is out as far as the type 1 bellhousing is concerned. The pressure plate will require too much clearancing , could sacrifice the structural integrity of the transaxle case. Leave the 228mm for the Bus people.

If you envision your car hitting the drag strip or seeing time in the Baja 1000, it's advised that you look to a forged flywheel. The forged flywheel is necessary according to NHRA rules and it is a lot stronger. If you are using a Type 1 transaxle, go with the KEP 200mm flywheel, as it allows the use of the common KEP high performance pressure plates to regain the extra clamping force.

If you are using a Bus IRS transaxle, then go with a Wasserboxer 228mm forged flywheel. It will give you the large clamping of the 228mm clutch, along with a softer pedal and the strength of the forged material.

As for lightening, this is a personal preference. Some people like the instant throttle response that a lightened flywheel provides, others prefer to have the full weight to keep the engine from dropping rpms quickly when backing off the throttle. If you do lighten the flywheel, remember go no lighter than 12 lbs.

An interesting bit of trivia: the wasserboxer engine, the watercooled Vanagon flat 4, shares the same bolt pattern for the flywheel. This means that a Wasserboxer flywheel is the same as a late model 2.0L Transporter. This also means that a Wasserboxer could use a Type 4 200mm flywheel, allowing a wasserboxer to bolt up to a Type 1 transaxle.

[GARRICK.CLARK]

Hey good information there .
I've just ordered a new 200 mm flywheel.
I'm now thinking that a 200 mm pressure plate might bolt onto a 210 mm flywheel. Am I right or wrong.

[Marc]

Ummm...if it was that easy, I doubt anyone would've gone to the trouble to make the conversion 'wheels. And Tuna would've mentioned it.

With your new 200mm flywheel you'll have many clutch options, including that Kennedy Engineered Products Stage II cover that I suggested initially. Few run a "pucked" disk on the street, one designed like a stocker with a marcel spring is smoother. Opinions vary on whether the spring-center or "rigid" disk is best; the spring-center costs more, has more places to fail, and has more inertia so the synchros are worked harder when you shift - but it does offer some cushioning to the drivetrain which some feel is worth it. I don't think there's much available in a spring-center disc that's up to the task for you (someone should chime in soon if I'm wrong)...In your shoes, I think I'd go with the 2100lb Stage II cover and a Daikin "Super Disc" - that combo's supposed to be good for ~240lb-ft, if you still experience slippage you could keep the same cover and try a more aggressive disk. A 2300lb Stage III cover is generally only used for drag-racing; the pedal pressure's high and cables don't survive for long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2-UXYu5l1Q

If you come across any issues with setting the endplay when installing the new 'wheel please be sure to mention them here for the benefit of anyone searching this topic in the future.

[GARRICK.CLARK]

Thanks Marc.
I have now ordered the Daikin super disc as well as the new fly.
My old fly is original and hasn't been machined on the shim face,
So with the same shim pack I'm hoping I will get the same endplay reading.

[Marc]

...So with the same shim pack I'm hoping I will get the same endplay reading.

That would be nice....but not very likely, so be sure to check it (measure before you remove the 210 'wheel too). It's rarely encountered with a Type IV case, but if the thrust bearing is moving any in the case that'll add to the reading - and if you shim to bring it down you can end up with insufficient clearance between the 'wheel and the bearing which'll cause it to seize. If the reading is "normal" (say, .005") with the old flywheel, there should be no worries.

[Piledriver]

Too late, but for future reference the wasser 228 was determined by consensus to be cast, only the 914 flywheels are forged.

IIRC Wally actually had a 914 FW remachined into a 228 for his dual disc floater setup.
(good for >450HP with a stock 228mm pressure plate or close)

The 914 FW can be used in a t1 trans simply by turning the extra long ring gear face back to T1 dimensions.
(The teeth are close to 3/4" long, and the PP sits in a recess, but basic dimensions are otherwise compatible)

Kennedy can also rebuild a std pressure plate to better spec in many cases, and usually for much less than a new one.

[Marc]

The early 411s sold in Europe had a steel 200mm flywheel also - but by the time they came to the US they had the (cast) 210.
Tuna's statement that the wasserboxer 228mm 'wheels were steel was probably true when he wrote that years ago - I believe that they switched to cast after ~6mos production with the 228 (the earliest were 215mm).

[Clatter]

FWIW, If you buy the AA China conversion flywheel, inspect it very carefully.

They had issues in the o-ring area where the crank mounts;
It will be too big, and the flywheel will be free to waller around on the crank..

Not sure they fixed all of them in that department or not.
Buying the Kennedy would be smart money ahead, IMHO.

[GARRICK.CLARK]

The wheel I have bought is the AA one.
Good info Clatter, I'll check and measure the O ring area against the O.g wheel.
I'll get the new clutch face checked ,and the new wheel face checked also.