End play approximation

[Greggyboy]

I do not have any shims in all my parts for setting end play. I know I need to order them but I want to only pay shipping once so I want to make a best effort guess.

I have no idea what I should order, so what I did was make some. I cutdown two, rusty (but cleaned up with fine scotchbrite pad) old flywheel-to-bolt spacers. I torqued the flywheel on with these on to 80ft-lbs.

I then measured forward to back end play with these shims installed: ~0.048". I removed the flywheel and measured my homemade shims after being torqued on: ~0.053".

Added together is 0.101" - 0.005"end play would call for 0.096" worth of shimming. This seems huge to me. Does this seem right? Is my measurement approach poor? That would be 3x 0.032" shims. Any advice would be appreciated. My Tom Wilson book seems to have more detail for a Type 1 motor during this section.

[Greggyboy]

No one has any input? Whether I'm about to screw this up or it's fine?

Does anyone remember or write down what their total shim thickness was?

[Max Welton]

With something this critical, approximations are useless. And you can't assume a .010" shim you ordered is actually .010". You have to measure. Try to get an assortment of shims that you can measure yourself. Not sure where you would get such an assortment.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_ ... _id=652149

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_ ... _id=652150

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_ ... _id=597908

Pick the three thinnest shims and assemble the crank/flywheel and measure end-play. Hopefully you will have some end-play (more than spec) and will them know how much of a change you need.

Max

[Max Welton]

Here you go.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Flywheel-S ... im-kit.htm

Max

[Marc]

Be absolutely sure that NONE of the endplay you're measuring is due to movement of #1 main bearing in the case. Seldom experienced in Type IVs unless the case has been cut for oversize thrust bearing and standard-thrust bearings were used for assembly, but it's commonplace in Type Is. If you "overshim" in an attempt to reduce the endplay you might end up with ZERO between the flywheel & thrust bearing, guaranteed to cause seizure.
Have an assistant push/pull as hard as they can from the pulley/fan end while you observe the thrust bearing for axial motion in the case. Placing your fingertips to touch both the bearing flange and the case while the crank's being clunked back & forth will let you feel any motion, too.

[Greggyboy]

Here you go.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Flywheel-S ... im-kit.htm

Max

Does it matter if that set is for a Type 1? It doesn't specify it's OK for a Type 4.

[Greggyboy]

Be absolutely sure that NONE of the endplay you're measuring is due to movement of #1 main bearing in the case. Seldom experienced in Type IVs unless the case has been cut for oversize thrust bearing and standard-thrust bearings were used for assembly, but it's commonplace in Type Is. If you "overshim" in an attempt to reduce the endplay you might end up with ZERO between the flywheel & thrust bearing, guaranteed to cause seizure.
Have an assistant push/pull as hard as they can from the pulley/fan end while you observe the thrust bearing for axial motion in the case. Placing your fingertips to touch both the bearing flange and the case while the crank's being clunked back & forth will let you feel any motion, too.

Good idea Marc, I'll check that just to be sure. The bearings were a snug fit to the case so I doubt it is the culprit. The case is a standard, non-bored. But the bearings are 0.010" larger crank bearings after a re-grind.

[Greggyboy]

I guess I should add. If I use ZERO shims and try to bolt the flywheel to the crank it will lock up the crank as the flywheel is in contact with the case. Is this normal?

[Piledriver]

I guess I should add. If I use ZERO shims and try to bolt the flywheel to the crank it will lock up the crank as the flywheel is in contact with the case. Is this normal?

No. That's not good, you should be able to pull the flywheel back and be free...

BusBoys usually has a good selection of shims.

I use two shims and measure for the third.
The case does not even need to be present as long as you previously checked the case<>thrust for fit.
Feeler gauges work just peachy with care.

You can also do it more or less the conventional way with the case on the halfshell.

On the halfshell you can see/check for main bearing thrust movement that way while you can still do something about it, even if thats just snagging another case. (check it one last time before installing the seal after assy)

ummmm...You don't have the distributor drive in... do you?
Little brass gear on crank does not enjoy being mangled as the crank gets slammed back and forth.
The dist drive comes out first and goes in last.

If that's the case, start pulling it back down.

[Max Welton]

Does it matter if that set is for a Type 1? It doesn't specify it's OK for a Type 4.

I missed that you have a type 4. Disregard.

Max

[sideshow]

Caseless end play setting (I believe) is the normal procedure for wedge mated cranks due to the number of mating cycles that style of lock is good for.

I have but never recorded any numbers used that method to get close (and I wanted to install the main oil seal at the time of mating, you know the no hammer method).

Do you know if any FLAPS or dealers near by and still stock wasser shims (because they fit) and you wouldn't have the explain the difference between 1-bolt and 5-bolt flywheels.

[Greggyboy]

I guess I should add. If I use ZERO shims and try to bolt the flywheel to the crank it will lock up the crank as the flywheel is in contact with the case. Is this normal?

No. That's not good, you should be able to pull the flywheel back and be free...
...
ummmm...You don't have the distributor drive in... do you?
Little brass gear on crank does not enjoy being mangled as the crank gets slammed back and forth.
The dist drive comes out first and goes in last.

So I DID have the distributor drive gear in matter of fact. I've removed it and inspected the drive gear. Now without it, here is what I did:
With flywheel installed, push the flywheel all the way in and zero dial indicator. Dial indicator is mounted to flywheel and needle is in contact with case rim. Pull the flywheel out with the "2 screwdriver method". With zero shims this measures 0.045", with 1 home made shim this measures 0.065".

How do I get the end play to go down by shimming if adding a shim makes it go up? How does extending the distance of the flywheel from the crank ever get down to 0.003-0.005"?

[Greggyboy]

I've read a bunch of threads and my measurements seem typical without any shim. If I have 0.046"-0.004" target end play, I would have a target shim of 0.042"/3 shims which is 0.014" per shim or a 0.36mm shim. This from what I've read is a very typical shim size.

I don't want to doubt what the veteran rebuilders are doing and have stated but I can't wrap my head around what is happening by adding 3 shims and how that is supposed to limit the "slop" in thrust of the crank shaft. Please advise.

[Piledriver]

I guess I'm not understanding what you are not understanding.

Using your numbers as fact and as example, putting in two .014 shims and remeasuring should give you .018" end play (assuming thrust is good to case) and three .014s would give you .004".

That's dangerously assuming the FW isn't contacting something else with no shims, never tried that.
I have always done it more or less as the manual states with two, first, as that actually works.

[Greggyboy]

Well I put in my homemade shim that measures .026" by caliper, it isn't flat, so when I put it in under the flywheel and torque it increases my endplay by .020" (which I attribute the 0.006" to crushing it flat).

My question is, how does increasing the length of the flywheel/crank combo shrink the endplay? What are the mechanical stops in the endplay measurements? and how does shimming out the flywheel affect it.

It's turning into less of an approximation to shim question now that it behaves like it should somewhat and more of a general end play on the Type 4 discussion I suppose.

Piledriver, you are probably right, I can accept that but I really don't want to continue without understanding my build better. The current state of my build will make it easy to understand and visualize. Thanks so far!