Camshaft recommendations?

[disc]

Hello everyone!
I'm seeking a bit of wisdom regarding the build my 2056cc T4. Main components so far:

CU case - top milled and alternator stand made;
rebuild stock CU heads
36hp doghouse shroud modified for T4 oil cooler;
2 pairs of T4 cylinder tins welded and modified to retain as much as possible T1 look;
other T1 tins modified to fit, some new made;
early 411/412 200mm flywheel (Ebay bargain)
T1 crankshaft pulley custom fitted to T4 hub and hidden trigger wheel behind the pulley
custom SS inlet manifolds
36mm VFR throttle bodies (right now I'm in the process of fitting them) and custom cable mechanism;
96 AA pistons and cylinders (still have to buy them)
Megasquirt
EDIS
C/R - not settled yet but relatively high ~ 9,5:1 ?

One of the biggest questions for me is the camshaft. My experience with aircooled engines is quite limited and selection of camshaft bothers me just from the begging of my project. Due to limited supply here in Europe my choice is narrowed to Webcams - I can buy cam and lifters from CSP. The problem is the type of the cam. My requirements are:

100-120 HP
perfect smooth idle
rpm range - up to 4500

Just an smooth engine for weekends and highway cruising.

What is the best cam that suits my setup? Money burning hole in my pocket and must make my move soon. Please share you thoughts.
Best regards!
Nick

[Piledriver]

Why only "up to 4500"?
Stock redline was 5600.

This isn't a T1.

Web 86 for just a little hotter than stock, will still pull 6K+ with good HD singles
163/86B @104 LC @9.5:1 with dual springs if you are serious.
If not porting it/upgrading the valves forget the 163/86B, Web 86 or 86a and HD single springs are about the ideal setup.

9.5:1 static CR is too much for an 86, maybe 86a.
As you aren't bumping displacement much, 9.5:1 will be hard to hit, a Web86 and ~8.6-9:1 is a valid combo.

EDIS was a good solution ~10 years ago, but the world has moved on.
Direct fire is far easier to troubleshoot if the need arises, and has been the recommended setup for years now.
EDIS will work if you are in love with it for some reason, but no spark cut/soft rev limit etc.

Pick up some LS2 coils, or a ~2000 VW Beetle/jetta "IGN4a" 4 tower for ~$35, waste spark, saves a couple I/Os.

Microsquirt will do what you want now, cheap, but it simply cannot become a MS3, it is what it is unless you are handy at SMD rework,
and even then it will just allow full sequential spark and fuel with mods.

Microsquirt Is a nice simple/solid solution if waste spark and batch fuel is enough.

A Web73 best matches your expressed desires, but depending on induction and exhaust may veer off the reservation some.
It is also not likely to make 120HP with bus heads, even with ITBs, but it will make a nice driver.

The web73-equipped 1800 in my squareback makes peak tq at ~3500 and pk power about 4600 RPM and pulls hard to almost 6K. ..hits pretty hard at 3500, the induction tuning really starts working there.
But: 2L Porsche heads (42x36, minimal ex port work, matching intake manifolds, 8.4:1 CR.

Web73, 2L manifolds, widened/tweaked Vanagon plenum to match (larger volume, match runner angles) and slightly stretched (for fan housing clearance) EMW HX replacement pipes with a 914 Bursch header for an effective tri-Y exhaust system.

I have a set of 96 flattops to slap in it if I ever pull it out for a little more displacement and CR.
(is my daily commuter, has been for years now)

It would probably be a better driver with the smaller 1.7L or 2L bus heads, and it might make 120HP now, with the bus heads not so sure. 1.7 L heads flow significantly better out of the box with the same valve sizes vs the 2L bus heads.

The 2L Porsche heads are destined for more interesting things if I can ever get around to it.
Too busy driving it.

[999argonaut]

Are you replacing the entire valve train along with your cam upgrade or just cam and lifters? I found that if you intend to do the whole thing properly (cam, lifters, rods, valve springs, OEM swivelfeet adjusters, retainers etc etc) the cam kits from the Type4store (despite the scary price tags) are simarly priced vs buying the same quality components from various suppliers here in Europe. I am facing the same dilemma and figure that even with the ridiculous shipping cost arrangement and tax its not far off buying a matched cam kit vs trying to figure everything out yourself with individual parts.

[volksbugly]

give me the following specs and I can stick it into a program. The program is for t1 engines and only goes up to 94mm but I can approximate

Code: Select all

Bore                   = 96mm
Heads                  = stock CU
Cam                    = ?  this is our changing pattern
Rocker ratio           = ?
carburation            = 36mm TB  which flows aprox like 44mm carbs
Exhaust size           = 1 3/8" to 1 7/8"  what size exhaust somewhere between that???
compression ration     = 9.5:1

so yeah with the above i can make a suggestion

so i need your ratio rocker and exhaust size

[Piledriver]

Stock t4 ratio is 1.3 intake, 1.25 exhaust
(in reality, most of the time, if you get the geometry set up right, YMMV)

He had the bus/vanagon heads, 39x33 valves, flow data can be had in the type4um in the following thread.
(Squareport/ovalport flow ~ same out of the box)

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

For a proper simulation you'll also need target CR, 9.5:1 + probably isn't going to happen on a 2056
...unless he significantly flycuts the heads which is absolutely not recommended on a T4.

His target RPM range and absolutely perfect idle call out a Web73 or variant therof, or perhaps a Web86.
Neither will like 9.5:1 even with premium., ~9:1 probably OK with tight deck and is realistic.
If running E85 only a full point could be added if you could mechanically make the CR.

[damo99]

Are you replacing the entire valve train along with your cam upgrade or just cam and lifters? I found that if you intend to do the whole thing properly (cam, lifters, rods, valve springs, OEM swivelfeet adjusters, retainers etc etc) the cam kits from the Type4store (despite the scary price tags) are simarly priced vs buying the same quality components from various suppliers here in Europe. I am facing the same dilemma and figure that even with the ridiculous shipping cost arrangement and tax its not far off buying a matched cam kit vs trying to figure everything out yourself with individual parts.

i would stay away from the type 4 store ,, i bought a new 78mm crank from them to australia and got a second hand stock 66mm crank sent to me .
it happened to another person in australia as well (he wrote about it on here) . we both got our money back but what a stuff around .
i have since been told it has happened a few more times secondhand parts getting sent instead of new

[Piledriver]

Are you replacing the entire valve train along with your cam upgrade or just cam and lifters? I found that if you intend to do the whole thing properly (cam, lifters, rods, valve springs, OEM swivelfeet adjusters, retainers etc etc) the cam kits from the Type4store (despite the scary price tags) are simarly priced vs buying the same quality components from various suppliers here in Europe. I am facing the same dilemma and figure that even with the ridiculous shipping cost arrangement and tax its not far off buying a matched cam kit vs trying to figure everything out yourself with individual parts.

i would stay away from the type 4 store ,, i bought a new 78mm crank from them to australia and got a second hand stock 66mm crank sent to me .
it happened to another person in australia as well (he wrote about it on here) . we both got our money back but what a stuff around .
i have since been told it has happened a few more times secondhand parts getting sent instead of new

When was this? very recently or ordered about 6 months back?
I recall the threads but the exact timeframe is fuzzy.

The Type4Store changed ownership and location in a major way awhile back.

It would be good to hear from Charles about this, perhaps he had some poor "help" in the shipping dept...
(visualizing summer "help" helping themselves to a nice new DPR crank and dumping a core crank in its place)

From experience, Charles customer service is stellar.

[volksbugly]

Piledriver what do you think of the 219 web cam with a 110 Lsa. I was mentioning a wider Lsa to give a really nice idle and since it will be fuel injected easier to tune rather than a carb with a wide Lsa at idle

[Piledriver]

No experience with that particular cam, sorry.
A couple degrees either way isn't going to make much difference though.
There is no magic...Maybe exhaust design//tuning.

EFI works just fine on any cam, you just can't use the vacuum signal for your fuel reference on wild ones.

It's a problem with a MAP sensor or AFM as most early factory setups ran, but thats why aftermarket EFI systems have an ITB mode or at least alpha-N modes, or some blend ability with speed-density, with Alpha-N at lower RPMs.
Primitive EFI with ~zero tunability needed "Fuelie" cams with low overlap.
(This includes CIS, if only due to the mass of the air metering plate)
With carbs you have no choice, that wild vacuum signal is absolutely all you have to work with.

The biggest idle issue at high overlap is EGR/random leftovers in the chamber causing ~random burns.
Carbs have the same problem, worse even, not enough knobs.

[damo99]

Are you replacing the entire valve train along with your cam upgrade or just cam and lifters? I found that if you intend to do the whole thing properly (cam, lifters, rods, valve springs, OEM swivelfeet adjusters, retainers etc etc) the cam kits from the Type4store (despite the scary price tags) are simarly priced vs buying the same quality components from various suppliers here in Europe. I am facing the same dilemma and figure that even with the ridiculous shipping cost arrangement and tax its not far off buying a matched cam kit vs trying to figure everything out yourself with individual parts.

i would stay away from the type 4 store ,, i bought a new 78mm crank from them to australia and got a second hand stock 66mm crank sent to me .
it happened to another person in australia as well (he wrote about it on here) . we both got our money back but what a stuff around .
i have since been told it has happened a few more times secondhand parts getting sent instead of new

When was this? very recently or ordered about 6 months back?
I recall the threads but the exact timeframe is fuzzy.

The Type4Store changed ownership and location in a major way awhile back.

It would be good to hear from Charles about this, perhaps he had some poor "help" in the shipping dept...
(visualizing summer "help" helping themselves to a nice new DPR crank and dumping a core crank in its place)

From experience, Charles customer service is stellar.

very recent me and "wreck" on here got had by them and i have since spoke to others that the same thing has happend .
we both got our money back but it was a real stuff around getting second hand parts sent and then had to wait another month to get the crank you should have got in the first place
i really wanted the 78mm chev journal crank i paid for but when i asked them to send another one instead of refund they said they where out of stock .
i then went to there web site and ordered another one of there ( didn't go through with it )it showed them in stock but they didn't want to send it
ended up getting a AA of car craft this was 3 months ago
don't forget we are over seas not in the US

[disc]

Wow guys!
I didn't expected such a warm welcome and straight answers! Thank you!

@Piledriver:
Maybe 9:1 will be final C/R. Ignitionwise - I like EDIS cause it's simplicity and bulletproof design - sequential ignition and injection in my opinion are not huge benefit over wasted spark/batch fire. I've been into Megasquirt for over 10 years now and "keep it simple" suits well enough my needs for this engine. If 120HP can't be reached - it's OK. All I want is smooth engine, that pulls strong enough for Ghia body and on stops to purr like kitten. I will add HD single springs to equation as you suggest!

@999argonaut:
Because I don't plan huge expenses on this engine, only needed parts will be swapped for better/performance ones. I'll keep stock rods, swivelfeet adjusters, retainers, unless other parts in build require changes. Parts sourcing from USA is my final approach if European suppliers are out of stock for the next century.

@volksbugly:
Rocker ratio will be standard for CU engine and exhaust will be custom, but as much as quiet.

So is Web 86 my cam?
And few pictures, cause everybody likes pictures!
The last one is just for gags !











And the last one:

[Piledriver]

Beautiful work on the manifolds!
Those twin turbos look awful big for a 2l
FWIW a fellow here did a T4 twin turbo using tiny turbos on a convertible T1, awesome show car, but it did run good from accounts.

A web86 is probably your best bet, the 2.1L factory WBX cam is close to the same specs.
CB Performance also has some T4 cam options in the same range, but AFAIK for ACVWs, only Webcams and Raby/Type4store in house grinds are nitrided. (I'm not absolutely certain of the latter but it is extremely likely)
The nitriding step justifies the higher cost.

Other major cam manufacturers nitride some cams, but don't make them for ACVWs.
Don't know about the European made cams.

(EMW cams are NOT nitrided, just to avoid confusion)

Google can explain why niriding a cam is a Good Thing far better than I.

[damo99]

those manifolds and throttle bodies look really nice .
i will be intrested how the 36mm throttle bodies run on it

[volksbugly]

I'm away from my phone right now when I get it back I will post some graphs from the dyno app

[Clatter]

Was just looking at Web's site:
http://www.webcamshafts.com/index_blank ... _4_8v.html
At the bottom...
Billet 86/86a on sale(!)

Who's with me on this one being the call?
Dual-pattern is really the way to go...