Cheap Junk 1971 Build

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Marc
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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by Marc » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:43 am

raygreenwood wrote:DUDE! :shock: ....DO NOT put your appendages in that stuff!
It's safe to assume that I never will again. At today's prices I couldn't even afford 20 gallons (nearly $1000) and that would be shallow enough to reach the bottom wearing long rubber gloves. It also wouldn't be deep enough to submerge a case half below the upper layer by the time you put it into a container wide enough.

5% acetic acid (A.K.A.vinegar) does a pretty good job and won't harm the skin, but you have to keep an eye on it to prevent damage to machined surfaces if you don't coat them with grease first ;)

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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by Piledriver » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:42 am

Berrymans carb cleaner is still available in all the various container sizes, at least here, is probably not much better for you, and is pretty good at eating everything except metals.
IIRC its about 1/10the the price.

Back when I was nice, we used a 55gal drum with about 30 gallons in it as an overnight soak for cases.heads etc.
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that reminds me

Post by ProctorSilex » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:30 pm

Who Framed Roger Rabbit: dip
Robocop: toxic waste
Real life: Hydrofluoric acid
I've got a gallon can of carb dip which is bad stuff. I wouldn't want to deal with anything larger. I plan to use WD-40, retail car store engine degreaser, and a pressure washer for engines when the weather warms.

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Re: that reminds me

Post by raygreenwood » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:14 pm

ProctorSilex wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:30 pm
Who Framed Roger Rabbit: dip
Robocop: toxic waste
Real life: Hydrofluoric acid
I've got a gallon can of carb dip which is bad stuff. I wouldn't want to deal with anything larger. I plan to use WD-40, retail car store engine degreaser, and a pressure washer for engines when the weather warms.
Yes...real life...hydrofluoric acid is just about the worst and one of the quickest ways to die. We use it in various places within my industry for etching circuits/glass etc.

Just horrible stuff. Even with skin contact it goes after the calcium in your system. It can destroy bone marrow fast.

If you get skin exposure in your upper torso area...it can commonly go after the calcium in your heart muscles causing heart failure...very common. Ray

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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by Piledriver » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:23 am

Don't underestimate the power of a common household dishwasher, or the powerful detergent used therein.
Might take a couple cycles, and really nasty stuff should visit the car wash first, but it does work.
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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by ProctorSilex » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:34 am

Well, I am single and I do have a dishwasher. I believe what you've written about it. With the right cleaner, I am sure it would work well. I just figured that $6 gets me 30min of pressure washer time and someone else's drain plus the potential to clean more stuff in one shot. But it's also a big production to get everything together for transport.
I will be measuring tonight.

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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by Marc » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:10 pm

I've heard of using cheap oven cleaner from the dollar store as a presoak - supposedly it works as well as the more-expensive products sold at your F.L.A.P.S.
The coin-op carwasher places generally disapprove of using any chemicals since they recycle their water. Some will have one bay dedicated to engine cleaning.

I use a dishwasher to clean cylinderwalls after honing; you need to get them out and wipe dry immediately when the rinse cycle stops or the fresh surface will rust up quickly. I wipe 'em down with some vegetable oil if I'm not going to be installing them right away.

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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by oprn » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:50 pm

Great thread! Lots of good practical info here.

I too have rebuilt a number of type 1s in the 70's and early 80s. It's been a while since I tinkered with air cooled VWs, forgot how much I enjoy it! This is my first go at a type 4 engine and I must say I am quite excited to get it in the buggy and running. I was picking and ordering parts before I found this forum and thread so hope I haven't done too much in the way of foolish buying! It is aimed at a basically stock rebuild with maybe a bit of an edge power wise but nothing crazy. I started with a '74 Bus CB engine that someone had put 96mm jugs and pistons in, ordered a Webcan 87 and a set of rebuilt stock 1700 heads to replace a cracked one. The plan is to ditch the stock carbs for a set of 40 mm Webers. All else will be as factory including the cooling system with thermostat. Not 100% sure on the direction I will go with exhaust as all the good options would not fit well on a Manx clone and/or are a little dear for my budget!

Parts are mostly here now, old ones cleaned and assembly just begun. And wouldn't you know it? One wrong ring in a box of new ones!

Thanks again for the insight provided here. Merv

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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by Piledriver » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:13 am

Welcome to the asylum! err..STF!

First: DO NOT USE OVEN CLEANER ON A T4 BLOCK OR ANYTHING ALUMINUM.
It chews into it, instantly.

Its OK on magnesium like factory T1 blocks or transmissions, have used it for that myself.

Second:
Hopefully the 1.7 heads have been opened up to std 1.8L/2l register (105mm id in head)

There were once 100mm register 96mm jugs available for the std 1700 heads, but at only 2mm thick at the head, things seldom lasted long, still turn up from time to time.

If the jugs are very thin at the head seal, I must strongly encourage you to buy a fresh set of new 96mm jugs and have the 1700 heads cut to match. Hopefully this was taken care of correctly by the PO and such, but you never know unless you ask... You can buy just jugs and reuse your pistons if in good shape.

AA jugs once were shipping ~3mm longer than stock, I suggest EMW as a source and make sure what you get are stock length. (The longer jugs can be a huge feature, but not when building a ~stock stroke engine)

On the cam, did you mean Web #86?
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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by oprn » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:41 am

I think you are right on the cam, I don't have it in front of me but it was listed as a street cam good from 2500 to 5500 rpm. The old cam didn't look so good and I didn't really want a smog Bus cam in a buggy anyway.

I just checked the jugs and they measure 104.75mm at the top so I think we are good there. They were in really nice condition so I decided to just re-ring them. Initially I was just going to clean this Bus engine up and put it in the buggy as is but when I did a compression check there was one cylinder very low on compression and two more not so good. Turns out the head was cracked on the low one and whoever put the jugs on didn't bother to space the rings out properly. Three out of the four cylinders had the ring gaps lined up. That is when I decided the whole engine needed to come apart!

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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by Piledriver » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:10 pm

Cool.

Lined up rings can give very low compression all by itself.
Had it happen to me once around 30K miles, on my sons bus, it was also oiling a new plug to the point of no fire within a minute or two, I figured he blew a hole in the piston...

Nope... After realigning (or rather unaligning...) the ring gaps, put back together and ran as good as new.
I built that motor tho... out of almost all scavenged used parts in a driveway surrounded by 8' snowbanks in upstate NY.
Sort of an ultra clean environment...probably why it ran so well. :twisted:
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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by oprn » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:32 pm

I was very tempted to just clean up the rings and reuse them, they were well within spec on end gap. I may have to yet If I can't get a replacement for the wrong oil ring in the new set!

I am a little nervous about the flywheel. It has a pronounced groove in it where the old engine oil seal ran. It is very smooth and wasn't leaking so I am hoping it will still hold with a new seal. Not a big job to drop the engine if it doesn't though.

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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by Piledriver » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:44 pm

Make sure to use a real VW seal, can be had from GoWesty reasonable price.
Change the front one too.

Most competent machine shops could probably pop a new hardened sleeve on the flywheel for that seal to run on, sane thing to investigate if its in good shape otherwise.

I have reused rings many times, and put stupid mileage on my vehicles.
Haven't had then not seat yet.

The only set i had that DIDN'T seat immediately were some new Grant rings in used jugs.
(but properly honed and round/straight)
I've had much better luck with old junk most throw away out of habit.
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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by oprn » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:48 am

I haven't thrown the rings away yet.

Yes I put big dollars into a Rabbit engine once, bought a used one and rebuilt it to a "tee" and put it in. I chased issues for quite a while on that one. Meanwhile I stuffed a set of bearings, rings and valve guides in the original engine quickly and stick it in a beater Audi Fox just for a back up daily driver. The Fox engine actually turned out better than the one I dumped the Bank into and ran ever better than it did new in the Rabbit!

Then there was the '74 Chev 1/2 ton 350 I put high compression pistons, align bore, cam, carb, rebuilt heads etc. into. It got 90 miles to a quart of oil! No mosquitoes though... :mrgreen:

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Re: Cheap Junk 1971 Build

Post by oprn » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:41 pm

Missing ring showed up today so now I can get on with my cheap junk build!

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