Oil pump Blueprinting

MRRAGPICKER · Post by **MRRAGPICKER** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:11 pm

Is there a thread or a "How to" article or sticky on how to check out and set up a oil pump for type 4 engines? The last oil pump I did, I had to get info from a bunch of different places. It would be nice for my next one if there was a place that had all the stuff to look for and do in one "How to" article.

fusername · Post by **fusername** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:10 am

do you mean how to inspect and address an old T4 pump or how to prep a type 1 pump for T4 use?

MRRAGPICKER · Post by **MRRAGPICKER** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:37 am

What and how to inspect and modify on a new type 1 pump. And why?

Cohibra45 · Post by **Cohibra45** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:47 am

Check out this thread in the old Aircooled Tech section:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... light=pump

I hope this is what you might be looking for. Still lots of information over there for any and all wanting to know more about T4 use!!!

I just did a search using the word 'pump' and that is how I found this. If it isn't exactly what you are looking for, there is still a ton of information over there. Jake was one of the best things that happend for the T4 community!!!

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:27 pm

I have seen a blueprinting "how to somewhere", but basically:

Lap face of pump WITH GEARS using ~ 400>1200 wetordry until end play is zero.
I have a bit of 1/2" optically flat glass I use (broken optical flat) for a lapping surface, but plate glass on a bit of granite tile should work fine.

Rotate pump as you go, use figure 8 pattern, lots of water etc.

I repeat this up to 2500 grit, your patience may vary.
Anyone doing this frequently may want to consider a motorized lapping block, basically a slow speed DA sander on its back, bench mount.

Repeat process for (preferably iron or steel) cover until flat.

The thin, almost see through pump gasket then sets the end play, which will be ~.003" when compressed.

The side play between the gears should slo be (iirc) <.004", checked with a narrowed feeler gauge.

Warning: You will probably find that a 26mm pump is WAY more than enough once this is done. 30mm+ pumps are a poor work around for crap tolerances IMHO.

If your hot oil pressure is too high and you are using the factory oil cooler setup, it will be bypassed and you will have high oil temps.
(oil temps will go up until the pressure drops enough for the cooler to start flowing)

5W40 works well...

The pump should be a .003-.005" CRUSH FIT in the block.
If it isn't, it needs to be oringed. (There are several sources who will sell you a pre-blueprinted or at least oringed pump)

Note: Measuring OD, calipers are ~fine. Measuring bore ID, accurately. is tougher than you think, and is best done with bore guages.

The passages should also line up reasonably well, but the late T1 pumps passages are bigger than a T4, so that's relatively minor.

There is also the shaft length issue to be dealt with when modifying a T1 pump for T4 use--- You DON'T want the oil pump drive gear<> cover being the cam end play limiter, especially if using an aluminum cover, which is a bad idea IMHO.

Excessive pump end play (>.005") and a loose fit to the case are a major cause of low hot oil pressure.

EVERY pump I have measured has been loose in the case,
(I don't mean just lately)
and the Schadecks have had up to .015" end play with NO gasket, one had one stud hole slightly offset so it FELT like a tight fit going into a case, but once the holes were opened up a tad, it slid right into a torqued case.

The only pump I have had that had the end play right was a pre blueprinted/hard anodized Schadeck unit from Gene Berg, and even then it needed the shaft shortened and a bit of clearancing as it was for a T1. It was also oringed.

I have checked out about a half dozen Mellings of varying vintages, and EVERY ONE of them had the end play at zero with no gasket out of the box. (I'm willing to bet Melling laps them for you as a final step, although the finish is a bit coarse)

They were also all a loose fit in the case, which is actually worse than an alloy pump as the iron won't "grow" with the case, so they need to be oringed, and they aren't.

craigvwdude · Post by **craigvwdude** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:32 pm

Doing what Pile suggest by sanding the face of the oil pump can make amazing differences in hot idle oil pressure.
I got the idea from Jake. I tried it on a motor and notice a tremendous hot oil pressure difference.
BTW, i just used 600 grit wet/dry paper and worked very good.

Craig

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:41 pm

craigvwdude wrote:Doing what Pile suggest by sanding the face of the oil pump can make amazing differences in hot idle oil pressure.
I got the idea from Jake. I tried it on a motor and notice a tremendous hot oil pressure difference.
BTW, i just used 600 grit wet/dry paper and worked very good.

Craig

True, but I like finely polished gear face/cover if possible.

MRRAGPICKER · Post by **MRRAGPICKER** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:34 pm

Now thats what I'm talking about. Thanks pile. I kind of had most of that stuff in my head but was not sure, I had found it in multiple places and posts, and written on parchment hidden under a rock in a dead tree. I think having it all in one place at one time will be helpful for everyone. thanks again for putting to record.

brettm69 · Post by **brettm69** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:17 am

Check out the book "How to Hot-Rod VW engines" from HP Books - there is a full article from Gene Berg on how to blue print the T1 pumps - pretty much like Pile explained.

The book is a bit old, my copy is from '72, but it's got some good info & lots of old cool pics.

thanks
Brett

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:08 pm

brettm69 wrote:Check out the book "How to Hot-Rod VW engines" from HP Books - there is a full article from Gene Berg on how to blue print the T1 pumps - pretty much like Pile explained.

The book is a bit old, my copy is from '72, but it's got some good info & lots of old cool pics.

thanks
Brett

It's probably the "article" I remember

Clatter · Post by **Clatter** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:10 pm

Hate to be the grumpy old man, but once again...

Schadeks suck now.
Jake doesn't sell them anymore...
They fit WAY loose in the case hole now.
Not just loose...like before.

O-ringing as by Berg, does no good for the T4, the O-ring just hangs in the air, not sealing against the case like in a T1.
There's no material there for it to seal against.

Anodizing to get the size up a bit holds promise, but..
Another real issue with them, (and many factory pumps) is that the finish on the inside of the body,
where the gears ride, is rough.
Many pump bodies will have had dull cutters used to plunge-cut with an end-mill making the holes where the gears ride.
Not only does this make for relatively inaccurate (loose) radial clearances from the gears to the body,
But also a rough finish.
You can see a rough, chewy surface in the hole where the gear teeth ride.
you can polish the end-play to perfection,
But if you have galled, rough, loose-clearance holes for your gear teeth to seal against, all is for naught...

Mellings, being iron, are bad for their own reason.
Schadeks suck now.
Original pumps are near-impossible to set the end-play right,
And some of them have the chewy, chip-smeared gear bores.

Our only hope seems to be the Revmaster pump,
Or the off chance that Jake will be making a run of them..$$$$

I'm now taking apart engines and saving the factory pumps.

What else can you do?
Maybe hunt for NOS Schadeks from the good 'ol days?

SUcks, but someone's gotta say it...
I'm going to go and chase neighborhood kids off my lawn now.

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:04 pm

I just oringed and cleaned up a couple 30mm Mellings...
(They need a LOT of clean up, I won't install one now w/o it seeing an ultrasonic bath after everything else)

The "jig" I use is an oil pump cover with a 1" shaft attached.

I chuck it up in the lathe, snug bolt on a pump, adjust to center up the pump, tighten down and cut away. (The cutting only takes a minute...)

The Berg pump I had did actually seal (barely), may depend on the block or who Berg has cutting the pumps.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:59 am

All of this talk of crappy oil pumps makes me want to carefully clearance my stock type 4 pump and re-install it on the 1.7L I am building.
I have a couple of ideas about how to clean up the bore a bit and tighten the lash on teh gear ends. Ray

brettm69 · Post by **brettm69** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:46 am

I recently rx'd a shadeck from aircooled.net the case/interference fit is good. I blueprinted it to 0 endplay. The internals are clean & smooth, however the outside (interference with case) and the rear do have many small pits - i don't imagine that would have any impact on pump performance, but those pits could just as easy have been on the inside of the housing or the gears me thinks from the milling/casting process...

Brett

Clatter · Post by **Clatter** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:24 am

I have a couple of ideas about how to clean up the bore a bit and tighten the lash on teh gear ends.

Please share!

I just oringed and cleaned up a couple 30mm Mellings...

Has it gotten that bad, to where this is what we must resort to?
Or some other crazy project in the works??

Cast iron makes for some nasty swarf, that's for sure...

Anybody out there go here yet??
http://www.revmasteraviation.com/produc ... /index.htm
Too big, yes, but maybe solve the problem of too much oil instead of too little...
http://www.revmasteraviation.com/produc ... pump/1.htm