Best Type III Conversion Factory Parts

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Clatter
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Best Type III Conversion Factory Parts

Post by Clatter » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:40 pm

OK,

Here I am getting ready to put a T4 into T3...

Now, it makes sense that a 914 or 411/412 fan shroud would be good, so you can use the timing mark easily.
Also would be smart to use the 914/411/412 oil fill at the top of the breather tower.
Same with the dipstick...

Unless you were going to adapt the factory fill/dipstick inb the T3 body..

So, how's about heat exchangers?
The 412 wagon i have here has some tidy heat exchangers.
Smaller than the 72-74 bus style...

Would these be the best to use and adapt to the T3 bodywork?

Also,
The 412 wagon has the tin seal lip all the way around the body.
I'm guessing that there was a seal in this location, like a bus. (?)

Now, the T3 had the cooling air, and the intake, to the vents in the bodywork...
And some people have cleaners that suck air from the compartment no problem...
The compartment wasn't sealed in the T3..

So what would be _Best_, even with some fab work?

Use the 412 tin to keep splash off of the carbs?
Use no front tin, so they get a lot of air?
Duct the cleaners to the body, and seal the compartment?

Using factory stuff, (any of it) and fabbing,
What would you say is best for this application?

Any wisdom is greatly appreciated...
I want to use this as a driver, and drive in the rain, whatever...

Thanks
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

busman78
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Post by busman78 » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:08 pm

The T4 HE's were nothing more than pre air warmers for the gas heaters stuffed above the transmission. Just exhaust pipe with tin wrapped around them.

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Stufenheck
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Post by Stufenheck » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:04 pm

Also would be smart to use the 914/411/412 oil fill at the top of the breather tower.
914 oil fill w/screw cap has to be cut down to a height 2.375” and epoxy back together to fit under the engine cover.
So, how's about heat exchangers?
The 412 wagon i have here has some tidy heat exchangers.
Smaller than the 72-74 bus style...
Use the 72-74 Bus heater boxes, connecting elbows and control boxes.
Use the 412 tin to keep splash off of the carbs?
Use no front tin, so they get a lot of air?
Duct the cleaners to the body, and seal the compartment?
Fit, trim and add tins as needed to seal compartment.

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Angelo Amato
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type 4 into 3

Post by Angelo Amato » Fri May 16, 2008 2:43 am

my recently finished fastback. mild tuned 2 litre 40 webers on ultra short manifolds to get under the lid and custom exhaust.

Wanted it to look pretty, cut down the flappy bits of the shroud tins.

I've adopted the type 3 principle and ensured the bellows on the end of the motor is correctly connected to the body work to duct the fresh air.

I like to think this is a 'proper' (OE) style conversion ??

Angelo

Image

Image

Multi69s
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Post by Multi69s » Fri May 16, 2008 3:52 am

Angelo,

That is one excellent job you did (the best I've seen). Mine will not be so pretty. Did you add any type of mount on the tranny? Did you fab up a piece for the billows or did you use the 411 part? Any heat issues? I know that you mentioned a custom exhaust, is all of it custom, or did you use some stock parts (bus, 411). What brand of muffler is that?

Also, I never here of this issue, but did you have to reset your torsion bars for the added weight? No one ever seems to mention that.

Thanks
David

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Angelo Amato
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Post by Angelo Amato » Fri May 16, 2008 5:03 am

Hi David, I think , most of your Q's (and there's a few :lol: ) are answered by the pics above look closely!.

it has added an early type 3 rear subframe (with frame horns) and added IRS. I did initially run squareback rear torsion bars (it is a fastback) but 'guess' the height wrong. I ultimately decided to go for coil overs front and rear so infinately adjustable now and matched to the weight in the rear.

rear engine mount is a type 2 one with adapters on the end to fit to the type 3 hanger mounts - inner type 4 mounts have been adapted to soild mounts.

Exhaust - rear box was designed by me and built by a tuner in the UK - designed mainly for ground clearance and simplicity, J tubes are eurorace ones that have be ceramic coated, not a merged system but I'm happy!

Air intake compises a 412 variant plastic bit that bolts over the fan and the rubber bellows. the metalwork on the body has been modded so the new bellow just bolts straight on - very neat and functional - will try and get a pic of it.

Angelo

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aircooledtechguy
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Re: type 4 into 3

Post by aircooledtechguy » Fri May 16, 2008 10:26 am

Angelo Amato wrote:my recently finished fastback. mild tuned 2 litre 40 webers on ultra short manifolds to get under the lid and custom exhaust.

Wanted it to look pretty, cut down the flappy bits of the shroud tins.

I've adopted the type 3 principle and ensured the bellows on the end of the motor is correctly connected to the body work to duct the fresh air.

I like to think this is a 'proper' (OE) style conversion ??
That is the cleanest type-3 conversion I've seen!! Super job!! Type-4s look so clean and nice when you have the ability to chop all that flappy tin away. No need to seal a type3 compartment if you have functional bellows like that. Very, very nice job.

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Class 11 streeter
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Re: type 4 into 3

Post by Class 11 streeter » Sat May 17, 2008 6:07 pm

aircooledtechguy wrote:That is the cleanest type-3 conversion I've seen!! Super job!! Type-4s look so clean and nice when you have the ability to chop all that flappy tin away. No need to seal a type3 compartment if you have functional bellows like that. Very, very nice job.
I agree completely! :D
So you think your project is taking forever eh? Well you've got nothing on me.....

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Clatter
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Post by Clatter » Mon May 19, 2008 1:10 am

Very Nice!
You can guess that i might have some questions :) ..

Is that front tin - the one over the bellhousing (clutch area) fabricated,or modified from the existing? Very tidy.

Would also love to see the mounts where the rear hanger bar attaches to the rear mounts.. you use the factory rear rubber mount pieces at the body?

Oh, and please do find the pic where the bellows attaches. Was scratching my head looking at those parts yesterday...

Was looking at how the factory also takes the carb intake air from the body ducts, too.
Was going to add another just like it on the other side, one for each carb.
Will have to fab airboxes...

How is wheel hop with that setup?
Nice that you have a rear "traction bar" that is actually strong enough to take the whole weight of the engine!
Is that enough to keep the notorious type 3 wheel hop at bay?
Because the whole subframe mounts on rubber, a "kafer" style bar would be of little benefit, as the shock towers are rubber mounted, too.
The factory mounts at the rear seem kind of soft, though, and i wonder how they would take the uplifting forces that the left side will see at launch..

Was trying to figure out some solid mounts that would bolt on, and tie the subframe directly to the body for track duty.
You would then remove them for daily use when wildness was not part of the program...

Also,
Are the small rectangular ports that would normally feed the heater boxes sealed off?
It looks like they may be setup to bleed a little...
It's been said on the forums here that they need to be open, or the cooling system will not be as effective.
The Vanagon shroud is a sought-after item by people running a header for this reason - it has those ports gone, and the internals adjusted accordingly to not compromise cooling.

Oh, and the oil fill - Nice!
I take it bus and T3 parts joined?

What is the tank on the left? Breather?

Also noticing (about an hour later :) ) the welds/plate on the left side by the rear mount. Fixing rust, or something more?

Dag, i just love it. Do you have any pics of the build up on the web somewhere?
It really shows some forethought.
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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Piledriver
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Post by Piledriver » Tue May 20, 2008 2:02 am

Very Nice, any more pics?

What wheels/tires?
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Stufenheck
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Post by Stufenheck » Tue May 20, 2008 8:54 pm

This past winter I manage to install Vanagon shroud, tin and alternator in my 65 notchback.
I’ve notice 25°F cooler temperature on #3 cylinder.
Heres a picture of the engine compartment. Spark plug holes had to be welded up and new holes punched for 914 2L heads. I still need to trim & paint tins plus clean the engine compartment.

Image

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Clatter
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Post by Clatter » Tue May 20, 2008 11:06 pm

Stufenheck,
I see why you would want the tin to go all around, to keep the muck out of the engine compartment.
If the intake was ducted from the fenders, it would be nice to seal the compartment...
But, didn't they leave the tin off the type 3 to "bathe" the engine in cool, swirly air?

That Vanagon shroud/alternator is the shiz...
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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Stufenheck
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Post by Stufenheck » Wed May 21, 2008 1:00 am

VW type 3 engine compartment design allowed for induction of cold air for either carburetor(s) or FI.
Yet they left some areas in the engine compartment open.

All of the type 4 engine compartments that I've seen have been sealed using either engine tins and or seals.

When I first installed my type 4 engine in my car, I had open sections.

About 3.5 years ago I fitted my own aluminum tins to seal the engine compartment.
I did notice a improvement in carburetor performance.
The air temperature in area above the engine tins was around 120" F on an 80*F day.

After getting a new exhuast system I no longer need the heater box outlets.
Had purchased the Vanagon fanshroud at a Bugorama swap meet and last year managed to find the engine tins and alternator on the Samba.

The Vanagon engine tins all had to be trim to fit in the Type 3 engine compartment.

Eventually I like to have a cold air induction for each carburetor.

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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood » Wed May 21, 2008 7:37 am

All of the type 3 and 4 cars had fully ducted cooling air and intake air. The reason for the tin was not just cleanliness. The rising heat in sitting still traffic in warm weather areas will make the inside of teh engien compartment red hot.
Summers in Oklahoma City or Dallas or even Atlanta....without a seal....which I had to do a few times because of availability....left every surface in the engine compartment so hot it could not be touched.
This plays heck with the EFI harness wiring, hoses and especially fuel hoses that are under pressure.
The only times I exeperienced fuel leaks were the few times I had to run with no seal.

I can't remember off hand...its been a while since I drove a type 3...but I beoeive that mostof teh openings in the tinware were toward the front and away from direct rising heat from the exhaust. Ray

Multi69s
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Post by Multi69s » Wed May 21, 2008 8:00 pm

For those of you who used the bus mustache bar, did the holes come out about level with the holes in the rear motor mounts? Or was the mustache bar lower the the original type 3 mounts? and by how much?

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