My first type4, probably 2056

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Clatter
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Clatter » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:00 pm

Piledriver wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:36 pm
T1s with all the weird port shapes can require a lot more work and sometimes extensive welding on the manifolds.
^^This is totally true..!!^^

(The result of me messing about with type 1s lately.. bad form!)
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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Piledriver
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:31 am

1.5mm is a good starting place.
You can also use a ball mill.

I like to slightly bevel/smooth the valve side edge OD of the rocker above the "foot" if the adjuster so you can easily get your fingers on the foot to give it a spin when checking zero lash.

No clikey-clickey and it spins? Its adjusted right.
(assumes cold// CrMo pushrods, or aluminum pushrods on a smoking hot engine. You can guess which is preferred)
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:53 pm

I built the short block once again for measurement. Deck with shims: #1: .056, #2: .056, #3: .055, #4: .052. With .056 deck I would have 9.4CR, and with .052 I would have 9.5. I think I will use a fine grit paper on a glass table to give #1, #2 and #3 a few moves. If I get them to .054 I think it would be fine.
Next, prepare the rockers for Porsche adjusters. Then, take out the springs off an intake and an exhaust valve and leave only the softest one (I have double springs) and get the geometry sorted.

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Gnasha
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Gnasha » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:22 pm

probably an dum question, can you get away with not fitting piston rings when checking deck heights?

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Piledriver
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:24 pm

Gnasha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:22 pm
... can you get away with not fitting piston rings when checking deck heights?
Certainly, mocking up without rings is strongly recommended...much much easier and safer for the rings.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:39 am

My second baby was born, so this build is again slowed down a bit, at least for a few months.
I took some steps forward, preparing the rockers for Porsche swivel feet adjusters. I grinded .060 and chamfered the exit holes. Then, I removed the double springs from a cylinder head and put some very soft springs to work on the valve train geometry. I put some 1.5mm washers under the rocker shaft, and used the "bubble level" method to adjust. Pretty close to stock pushrods, 271mm. I have chromoly pushrods to be cut to length.
Exhaust at 0 lift, half lift, full lift. Got me to 273mm long pushrod.
20180116_184603.jpg
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Here is how I got it at half lift, and another shot from a different angle (hard to see in picture, with bare eye seems to be as it should, axis of adjuster inline/parallel to the axis of valve)
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Same measurements for intake, I got 272.2mm long pushrod.
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And the level.
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I will re-do the measurements in a few days, to double-check I got everything right. Measure twice, cut once. I will make different intake and exhaust pushrods, even if the difference is just 0.8mm.
Next, check the fitting of the fuel pump and order some more parts: clutch, fittings, exhaust, fuel pump, trigger wheel and Mini Cam Sync just to name the bigger ones... Also suspension and steering will be updated, so money have to go there too.
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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:13 pm

I have checked again the pushrod length this weekend, and it seems the initial measurements were correct: 273mm for exhaust, 272.2mm for intake.
I have thought of a nice and easy method to verify the measurement with the bubble level method: I have reset the pushrod to the initial measurement and checked the level: nice and flat. Then, I increased the length of the pushrod by 1mm (1 turn with M6 thread), reset the lash, and checked level again: it was off center in one direction. Then, I decreased "correct" length by 1mm (2 turns in the other direction), reset lash, check level: it was off-center in the other direction. So, the initial measurement is good.
Now I hope I can cut the chromoly pushrods with a tube cutter...

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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:17 am

So, other two questions:
1. The rocker shaft studs are a bit too short, maybe screwed in too much, by 2-3mm. I will have to un-screw them a bit to use the .060 shims and still have full engagement of the nuts threads. I think this is not a problem, right? Or how much do there studs must be screwed in? I did not find any type4 "heavy duty" studs, only stock ones. I only found for type1, which are clearly different. Are there any type4 better studs? Also, my thinking is that Jakob would have installed better ones if he considered the current ones are not good for my application...
2. What starter is good for this "big" engine with 9.5CR? Will the stock type1 Bosch SR15 be ok? How about Bosch SR17 (self standing)? It has higher torque, but I saw people had issues with them ("new", not rebuilt). Anyway I want a new starter for this engine, and the price is not that much different.

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Piledriver
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:20 am

The original 7mm/10mm step studs are an issue on stock engines.

I have never held a T4 and T1 HD rocker stud together to compare, I suppose they could be the same part, you just need 8 for a T4 instead of 4.

I never had any issues with the length of the HD CrMo studs, they are long enough.
I wasn't trying to use stock studs.

EMW sells them as well as the solid spacer kit, a lot of other places resell them, I suppose the guys in Europe may get them locally. BOTH the HD studs AND the solid spacers are very strongly recommended, even on an otherwise stock engine.

I suggest a new SR15 with the permanent magnets.
Its a gear reduction starter, its actually new, and they rock.
You MUST put a new bushing in the trans with a new starter.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:24 am

I have checked the EMW website, for type4 cylinder heads I can only find "8mm Rocker Arm Stud T-4" which look like the 10/8mm type1 studs, but shorter on the 10mm side. This is what confused me in the first place. On CSP website I can find stock type1 (10/8mm), stock type4 (10/7mm) and "racing" studs (10/8mm, long, maybe Gene Berg from the GB in the part number?) for type1 and WBX engines. Nothing "HD" for type4. So I guess type1 "racing" studs can be used on type4 too, but what about the holes in the rocker shafts and mounting blocks, do I have to bore them larger? From a quick measurement, the holes are just shy of 8mm. I'll take out some rocker studs from type1 heads and see if they fit in the rocker shafts, just for comparison.

Interesting info on SR15, I did not know the new ones also have reduction gears. I thought only the SR17 for auto have reduction gears. I found several types on Hoffmann website, and it is still not clear which is good:
12V started, Bosch, I think this is the SR15. It does not look like the SR15 advertised on aircooled.net, but it is identical to the SR15N advertised on cip1.com. But on aircooled.net it is mentioned this is for 12V systems until 1967, not after.
https://en.hoffmann-speedster.com/bus/b ... h?c=139188
12V "new style", self standing
https://en.hoffmann-speedster.com/bus/b ... e?c=139188
12V auto starter, with higher power rating (this should be the SR17)
https://en.hoffmann-speedster.com/bus/b ... h?c=139188

wreck
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by wreck » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:50 am

I used T1 studs because EWM was out of stock when ordered my bits from them . You'll have to cut the 10mm section down to suit , I also had to drill the posts and shafts for the 8mm shank and step in the stud . . I've about 7mm spacers because of longer valve/springs etc and the T1 were long enough for them .
No matter where you go , there you are !

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:50 pm

I took out an old type1 head and tested the rocker arm. It fits nice on the rocker studs, except at the bottom where the type1 studs are tapered to 10mm. I guess drilling a bit the type4 rocker arms to 10mm, maybe 5-10mm deep, is enough to make them work with type1 hd studs.

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:15 am

A bit more progress here. I bought one more set of complete VFR800 throttle bodies for 50 bucks, locally. I wanted the half with pulley, just to have pulleys on both sides, but took everything to have spare injectors, sensors, regulator etc. They came with "trumpets" which is a big benefit. I have to buy one more set of trumpets because the original set has two long and two short, and I need four of the same size. I have also bought COPs, Denso 129700-4580, 125mm (same as the more common/older 4150), 1.3-1.5Ohms.
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I have received the CB Performance Micro Cam Sync. At 50 bucks plus transport it is a good investment. I guess I'm going sequential!
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A colleague from mechanical department helped me mill the intake manifolds to fit the throttle bodies in. The holes are a bit offset (1mm) but I think this is due to casting mis-alignment. I was near the mill when my colleague programmed and milled the holes, and everything started well aligned (center-to-center spacing of the TBs is 92mm, IDF manifolds are 90mm, this was taken into consideration). Not a big problem I guess. I will put an O-ring around for good sealing. And it looks like the injectors have good spray direction and centering in the holes.
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CobraJet
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by CobraJet » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:36 am

Nice score! What size are those throttle bodies?

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:46 am

36mm, Honda VFR800 2000-2002. 30-40 pounds is usual price on ebay UK, and transport is ~20 in Europe. I found some guys locally who sell motorcycle parts, and they agreed to sell at ebay price (actually ebay price plus transport, I get to the same cost). There are guys around here who used same TBs. They are nice that the spacing is close to IDF, so installing them is easier than making flanges (as for GSXR ITBs). I wanted them to be this small, maybe 38mm would have been better. But larger than that I see no benefit; the intake port is smaller anyway, so the ITBs are not a restriction at any RPM. Plus torque shall be better at lower speed, and better vacuum signal. I am not sure about injector flow rate, but I will test them. If they are not enough for my engine, I can always buy Honda S2000 injectors to fit (they are not like the Bosch EV14).

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