Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

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David Follett
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by David Follett » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:32 am

Almost ready to fire up the '74 converted T2 2.0L engine in my '69 Ghia. As soon as it runs and I can evaluate the performance I'll post why & how I did it and hopefully its great performance.
Dave
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David Follett
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by David Follett » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:58 am

Curious about the engine 914 Ghost posted. I'm about to fire up my T4, actually a 2.0 Type 2CD engine, in my '69 Ghia and will post why and how I chose to do it soon.
Seems to be a lot of open uncovered space in the Ghost engine bay. The Ghia bay is a lot tighter but I am concerned about heat and wondering if It should be covered. The engine has a Rabi conversion that the PO installed in his '74 Bug. No front, rear or side plates/covers.
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Piledriver
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by Piledriver » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:00 pm

Oh Hell no...NoNoNoNoNonononono.

You MUST seal the engine bay-- it is not just "nice to have" its absolutely critical not to recycle heated air.
Making those plates up is not that hard, but I cannot stress enough not to drive it or even run it in the driveway without a good ~airtight seal separating hot/cold side.

IIRC even the basic kit has the primary sealing bits.

You WILL cook your heads in < 5 minutes sitting at idle recycling hot air, except maybe if its <40F degrees out.
Really.

If you have the underside "ski jump" tin that redirects the hot air out the back properly you may get away without the front tin, but the engine will be filthy sucking in road grime/dust etc. It gets nice clean air sucking cooling air as the factory did, decklid standoffs or a cutout behind the licence plate strongly suggested if you have an early car.

The "H" channel foam seal for bay busses makes for an easy (if somewhat expensive) flexible seal once the plates are made up. They do last decades if you don't tear them up.
You can't "roll your own" final flex seal that works as well, cheaper, i have tried.
Make the filler bits out of cardboard or plastic cardboard (works for brief testing) then transfer to aluminum and bolt in...

I you cannot make the parts, buy them from the type4store, assuming you have a DTM.
Don't skimp on this. Keep it parked until you can do it properly.
Seriously.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Gnasha
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by Gnasha » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:10 pm

Im seriously considering replacing my current ghia engine with (excessive thrust clearance) a T4. i've read all the post so far so Id like to see the collection of photos and continue reading this post where ever it has been transferred to.

Anybody help please?

Regards
John

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oprn
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by oprn » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:54 pm

I picked up a Manx clone last fall (wanted one since I was a kid!) and found the 1600 DP was not exactly in the condition as advertised! Did the research on cost to freshen it up and decided to use a '74 type 2 engine I have lying around collecting dust. Turns out it is not in the best condition either but will cost no more that the type 1 to freshen up (except for the exhaust!) so - why not? I like the idea of the added dependability as we plan to use this buggy for summer touring in our retirement and that could very well involve pulling a small trailer (mobile suitcase) with a canoe on top.

danosrs
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by danosrs » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:48 am

Hi everyone,

Decided to buy the wife a Bug since she has always wanted one. up north PA they are far a few between when your looking for one that is set up and ready to go.

We found close by a 62 ragtop that looked good and was the color the wife wanted. After we checked it out and we liked it I was then learning what a type 4 conversion was? I had a bug when stationed in West Germany back in the 80's but have none since. (1972 1302)

The 62 has a type 4 installed. European motor works conversion kit used and the T4 oil cooler was grafter to a 36HP doghouse. Its 2056cc with dual HPMX 44's. Webcam 86 cam. The tranny is a 4.12 RG with .82 fourth.

I have to clean up the wiring and give the motor a good bath.



danosrs
Western PA
1962 VW Beetle Ragtop (for wife)
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Typ 4
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by Typ 4 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:52 am

I always liked the reliability of a Type 4 compared to type one engine. Also, I finally found some time in between family commitments and could install it at last . Been out a few times and love it. It's a rather small engine, 1832 66x94 with type one forged mahle pistons, bushed rods, 1800 heads 41x34, 9.5:1, eurorace e cam, 210mm flywheel, 36 dellortos. You wouldn't believe its only 1.8 ltrs 😊

H2OSB
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by H2OSB » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:11 am

Typ 4 wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:52 am
I always liked the reliability of a Type 4 compared to type one engine. Also, I finally found some time in between family commitments and could install it at last . Been out a few times and love it. It's a rather small engine, 1832 66x94 with type one forged mahle pistons, bushed rods, 1800 heads 41x34, 9.5:1, eurorace e cam, 210mm flywheel, 36 dellortos. You wouldn't believe its only 1.8 ltrs 😊
Awesome combo. If I may ask, where did you get conn rods re-bushed?

H2OSB

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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by Typ 4 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Thanks man, had the rods bushed quite a few years ago by motoren sauer, an engine reconditioner in Hösbach near Aschaffenburg, Germany. Thats a bit too far to get done these days but I'm sure a good engineer could make some from bearing bronze anywhere in the US for you. You have to get them honed or reamed to size once installed, any reputable company should be able to do that.

H2OSB
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by H2OSB » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:57 pm

Ah, I didn't realize you were in Europe. You can get anything VW done over there. I asked a relatively local builder(well, same state...California) and he suggested I just buy new Ps&Cs and rods together from some common source. Guess he didn't have the bushings. I've always thought it would be cool to run T1 94s in a T4 engine, though there's no reason why.

Currently, my plan is to run my 1.7L 914 engine with 96mm pistons and barrels in my 1303. I have a set of 1.7 heads that have been opened up to take the 96s. I'm going to have them rebuilt with 42/36s. I'm still undecided, for certain, what I'm going to do for induction and exhaust. I have a set of 36 Dels, I REALLY want to use, but they're in dire need of a complete rebuild. I have a few ideas for the exhaust but I haven't decided yet.

I do have a question for you, since you're in Germany. I see a lot of guys over there running exhaust like the Vintage Speed, but many people here say they rob power. What is the truth? I REALLY want to run an exhaust that exits out of the factory cut outs (but bigger), but I don't want to unduly gimp my engine just because I like the way they look. There was an issue of VolksWorld in 2015 where a guy had a 1303 GSR with a 2.7L T4. He was running a Remele/VS exhaust (I presume the Remele part was the header pipes and VS part was the muffler, based upon the way it looked.). The article stated he dyno'd at 220hp. I can't imagine the exhaust could have killed too much power.

Oh, what cooling are you using?

Thanks in advance
johnL (aka H2OSB)
www.superbeetlesonly.com

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Piledriver
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by Piledriver » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:34 am

If you have to rods rebuilt it should be "free", or close..
Replacement bushings are thick wall and always need bored and reamed to size.

All the machinist needs to do is order the right ones that are extra thick walls so they can be reamed to 22mm.
There is no more "work" involved other than perhaps ordering different than stock bushings.

Example (and possible "easy button)
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/engine/rods ... 0958a.html

They charge 10 euro more for 22mm pins vs. std 24mm pins..
The 1.7 rod takes the same bushing as the 2l rod... so they can do it.
They might just sell you the bushings as well, I haven't had any luck with a source/part#, some speciality stuff is still only on dead tree.

I'm surprised EMW can't do it reasonably, they probably simply don't stock them.

Given the current exchange rate etc, CSP may be cheaper than EMW for the whole pre-modded rod.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

TZepeSH
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by TZepeSH » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:14 am

Jakob at GetBackOnTrack also has bushings and can rebuild connecting rods, but he's in Europe. I just bought the bushings and had a local shop swap and ream them.

Typ 4
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by Typ 4 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:59 pm

H2OSB wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:57 pm
Ah, I didn't realize you were in Europe. You can get anything VW done over there. I asked a relatively local builder(well, same state...California) and he suggested I just buy new Ps&Cs and rods together from some common source. Guess he didn't have the bushings. I've always thought it would be cool to run T1 94s in a T4 engine, though there's no reason why.

Currently, my plan is to run my 1.7L 914 engine with 96mm pistons and barrels in my 1303. I have a set of 1.7 heads that have been opened up to take the 96s. I'm going to have them rebuilt with 42/36s. I'm still undecided, for certain, what I'm going to do for induction and exhaust. I have a set of 36 Dels, I REALLY want to use, but they're in dire need of a complete rebuild. I have a few ideas for the exhaust but I haven't decided yet.

I do have a question for you, since you're in Germany. I see a lot of guys over there running exhaust like the Vintage Speed, but many people here say they rob power. What is the truth? I REALLY want to run an exhaust that exits out of the factory cut outs (but bigger), but I don't want to unduly gimp my engine just because I like the way they look. There was an issue of VolksWorld in 2015 where a guy had a 1303 GSR with a 2.7L T4. He was running a Remele/VS exhaust (I presume the Remele part was the header pipes and VS part was the muffler, based upon the way it looked.). The article stated he dyno'd at 220hp. I can't imagine the exhaust could have killed too much power.

Oh, what cooling are you using?

Thanks in advance
johnL (aka H2OSB)
www.superbeetlesonly.com
Hi John,

I'm not in Germany anymore, living in New Zealand for a number of years but do get the odd thing still shipped over from there.
Unfortunately didn't have the chance to get onto stf for a few years so my old user name and pw didn't work anymore, but all good now with a slightly different name.
Had the rods done before we moved as I always liked the fact of having new quality forged flat top pistons. The other advantage is the weight of the mahle 94's compared to the standard pistons, the 90's are 110 grams heavier. 440 grams of reduction of reciprocating mass contributes to driving pleasure.
As Piledriver said, there is an easy option via csp, thats where I got the piston and cylinders from. They also have exchange rods from memory and may even sell the bushings if you ask them.

The 1.7 heads paired with 42x36 valves work very well, had a set done for a friend in Germany. They are on a 2 liter engine, exhaust valve guide bosses were shortened to get a little more flow there. We assembled the engine during a trip there and he installed it a short while later. Running 40 IDF's and a Schleicher 296 cam. Compression from memory around 9:1, he loves it.

36 Dellortos could work well if you clean them thoroughly, put a rebuild kit on and jet them for your engine. I feel if you don't build a large engine (capacity and cam) they're the best choice.

Exhaust, there are not a lot of options these days. Vintage speed do different types if you have a look on their website. I ended up with a VS exhaust thats called a super flow. It is a little more audible but has a nice tone to it. Running 411 shortened heat exchanger pipes ceramic coated. However the tailpipes were hitting the apron cutouts.
I didn't want to purchase their header pipes as mine were already made so ended up cutting the tailpipes off, jigging and tig welding em back on. I can't say if it rob's power as it is a small engine but can assure you it goes like the clappers :mrgreen:

Cooling is horizontal with aluminium shrouds, Riechert style but self made. Got an external oil cooler under the bumper and eliminated the engine cooler.
There might still be some of my older postings on the somewhere on here.
No belt throwing problems and cooling nicely.
Andreas
Last edited by Typ 4 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

Typ 4
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by Typ 4 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:41 pm

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Typ 4
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Re: Why did you pick the Type 4 conversion?

Post by Typ 4 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:42 am

20170422_074731-1.jpg
Vintage speed
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